Growing discontent with RCI

[Dustijam Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dustijam]

Let's say you own a BLUE March week 12, 2BR, at inland resort Sandcastle Village II in New Bern, NC, which gives you 44,000 RCI points. You decide you want to go to an oceanfront resort within the RCI Points system, so you take a RED August week 33, 2BR, at oceanfront BIS Ocean Pines in Duck, NC, which only costs 42,500 points. You get a trade up and even have 1,500 points ''change'' left over! It is extremely unlikely that supply and demand factors would EVER be skewed enough in RCI Weeks to allow someone to make such a trade up, but the numbers racket of RCI Points allows members there to do it every day!

I can’t speak specifically to the BIS or Sandcastle from a lack of personal experience, but when I find a 2 bedroom BIS week 29 “Prime Season” sitting stale at $6,000 on Redweek, well something tells me no matter what you think of the resort the market disagrees.

From experience I can compare the Divi’s and there your example flounders.

I purchased a peak Divi Dutch Village week for around 2K on EBay. The points (37,500) will not allow me to trade into the Divi Village, just down the sand block from Dutch Village, as a 1 bedroom peak season in the newer Village goes for 61,500 points. Nor, should I expect to, even though as with your BIS, good luck finding Dutch Village availability during peak season.

That is because you could not touch a Divi Village 1 bedroom peak week for anywhere close to 2K. Newer resorts are rewarded with higher point totals, even in overbuilt areas. There is nothing corrupt about the system that I see. Perhaps there are flukes, as in the example you gave, but that is the same as in any system.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Location is THE big driver of demand, with quality a much lesser factor. New Bern is often availible when nothing can be had on the oceanfront on the OBX.

A good comparision of these weeks is the rental value. The New Bern week would be difficult to rent, and it one got lucky, they would be unlikely to get much more than maintenance fee. The Duck week would be easy to rent for three to four times the maintenance fee. The rental market says the Duck week is far more valuable.

How about resale? One would be lucky to get a few hundred dollars for the New Bern week, while the Duck week would generally bring a minimum of $5,000. The resale market says the Duck week is far more valuable.

With OBX t/s rentals it is ALL about LOCATION. Owners at BIS-Kitty Hawk, the newest resort on the OBX and also a Gold Crown, but one where you have to drive to get to the beach, price their rentals $100 less than the oceanfront resorts, and still generally cannot rent them unless all of the oceanfront rentals are gone. In terms of ''quality'' BIS-Kitty Hawk is newer and more luxurious than Sand Castle Cove, but the rental demand is MUCH stronger for BIS-Duck than BIS-Kitty Hawk.

Your Aruba comparision is not at all valid because from your description, the locations are similar. The BIG difference in my examples is one is a high season week in a much more desirable location. While quality is a driver to a point, season and location are both much more important drivers of demand. Find a newer resort 45 minutes drive from the beach and an older resort on the beach in Aruba, contrast a hurricane season week at the former with a late winter/early spring week at the latter, and then you have a comparable situation.

And BTW that week 29 is not a bad deal, but hardly ''stale'' as Redweek marks it as a ''new listing''. Didn't you notice that designation?

[bigfrank Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close bigfrank]

Too bad we can't setup our "Ignore" list to include moderators!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry we can't do that since when they are moderating they should be heard. You do not have to look at a post from who ever you do not like to read from.

[bigfrank Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close bigfrank]

Something weird happened today. I got a from Rci for confirmation on hold from a search for this July in Italy. I needed Sicily so I let it go. I asked was there anything else and the VG said no. So I asked is there any inventory for rent. After checking she came back and said no. You believe it. For once there was nothing in rentals but there was 1 unit for exchange.

[katiemack Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close katiemack]

Very weird, Frank....

[Dustijam Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dustijam]

And BTW that week 29 is not a bad deal, but hardly ''stale'' as Redweek marks it as a ''new listing''. Didn't you notice that designation?

Good point, but with resales stale is a relative term as "New" on Redweek lasts, I believe, at least a month based upon the notices I have received. Good deals go fast, so the 6K would appear to be overpriced, but we will see. Also, 6K for a 2 bedroom, beach location speaks volumes to the quality, or lack thereof.

As to purchasing any point resort for a few hundred dollars, it is not going to happen if the MF's are anywhere in line with the total points received. That serves to balance any resale difference between the two resorts regardless of season.

But, your argument does bring up an interesting aspect of the points system. There are inequities, not to the extent where I would agree that the system is corrupt, but certainly there are imbalances.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Location is THE big driver of demand, with quality a much lesser factor. New Bern is often availible when nothing can be had on the oceanfront on the OBX.

A good comparision of these weeks is the rental value. The New Bern week would be difficult to rent, and it one got lucky, they would be unlikely to get much more than maintenance fee. The Duck week would be easy to rent for three to four times the maintenance fee. The rental market says the Duck week is far more valuable.

How about resale? One would be lucky to get a few hundred dollars for the New Bern week, while the Duck week would generally bring a minimum of $5,000. The resale market says the Duck week is far more valuable.

With OBX t/s rentals it is ALL about LOCATION. Owners at BIS-Kitty Hawk, the newest resort on the OBX and also a Gold Crown, but one where you have to drive to get to the beach, price their rentals $100 less than the oceanfront resorts, and still generally cannot rent them unless all of the oceanfront rentals are gone. In terms of ''quality'' BIS-Kitty Hawk is newer and more luxurious than Sand Castle Cove, but the rental demand is MUCH stronger for BIS-Duck than BIS-Kitty Hawk.

Your Aruba comparision is not at all valid because from your description, the locations are similar. The BIG difference in my examples is one is a high season week in a much more desirable location. While quality is a driver to a point, season and location are both much more important drivers of demand. Find a newer resort 45 minutes drive from the beach and an older resort on the beach in Aruba, contrast a hurricane season week at the former with a late winter/early spring week at the latter, and then you have a comparable situation.

And BTW that week 29 is not a bad deal, but hardly ''stale'' as Redweek marks it as a ''new listing''. Didn't you notice that designation?

Carolinian,

You are in utter denial about trade ups in RCI. I have seen you post about your portfolio. I'll bet that you are an excellent exchanger and trade up all the time.

And, you probably don't even realize that every time you trade up, someone else in RCI either got nothing for their deposit or someone else had to trade down.

No wonder you want for RCI to be like it used to be. Trade ups are fantastic.

By the way, if you think that RCI is like Enron, you should be advocating that RCI go out of business. Is that what you are advocating?

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Obviously you were not around on TUG in the days of timeshare guru Fletch, who regularly advised to never pay over 5K for any timeshare red week on resale.

Blue weeks in New Bern are dirt cheap and do go for little or nothing.

If you want to look at the OBX resort that has the highest demand on the rental market, Outer Banks Beach Club, this nothing Points week in New Bern would have also taken that from the Weeks system, for July 4 week for a 2BR, and with change left over under the crossover grids in effect until recently. Even now, it would almost take it. This nothing New Bern week at a so-so resort is clearly way overpointed.

This one is probably just incompenence and stupidity by RCI as I know of no reason for them to manipulate this particular one.

Where you find the corruption is in resorts still in developer sales. I know BIS politicked RCI to give them more points than they deserved for BIS-Kitty Hawk, the lowest demand resort on the OBX, because I had someone rather high up in that company tell me that they were doing that while it was going on.

The corruption is also very evident in the systematic overpointing of overbuilt areas. Indeed when Bootleg told us what the two resorts with the highest oversupply in the RCI system were, both were Gold Crowns in Orlando and one was a Points resort. An honest system based on supply and demand would give such a resort low points to reflect its real market situation. But NOT RCI Points! A 1BR week in hurricane season there would have taken a prime winter season 1BR gold crown on a crossover trade in any resort in the Caribbean. That is pure unadulterated corruption.

Good point, but with resales stale is a relative term as "New" on Redweek lasts, I believe, at least a month based upon the notices I have received. Good deals go fast, so the 6K would appear to be overpriced, but we will see. Also, 6K for a 2 bedroom, beach location speaks volumes to the quality, or lack thereof.

As to purchasing any point resort for a few hundred dollars, it is not going to happen if the MF's are anywhere in line with the total points received. That serves to balance any resale difference between the two resorts regardless of season.

But, your argument does bring up an interesting aspect of the points system. There are inequities, not to the extent where I would agree that the system is corrupt, but certainly there are imbalances.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Supply and demand set trading power. An even trade is what the market says is an even trade, not what you say it is.

I remember early in my timeshare days, when I owned a 3BR blue week, I traded it for a studiio in hurricane season in the Caribbean. I thought it was a trade up when I got it because it was red, but changed my mind during the night I spent in a hurricane shelter waiting to see if a hurricane would hit the island full force (fortunately it just brushed the island).

Part of being a good Weeks trader is figuring out when the best supply / demand situations are going to be, and trying to do your exchanges in that time period. Its not that different from calculating when is the best time to buy or sell stocks. You try to anticipate market conditions.

Carolinian,

You are in utter denial about trade ups in RCI. I have seen you post about your portfolio. I'll bet that you are an excellent exchanger and trade up all the time.

And, you probably don't even realize that every time you trade up, someone else in RCI either got nothing for their deposit or someone else had to trade down.

No wonder you want for RCI to be like it used to be. Trade ups are fantastic.

By the way, if you think that RCI is like Enron, you should be advocating that RCI go out of business. Is that what you are advocating?

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Of course, since it agrees with you!

All I was saying is that I don't feel I have grounds for this particular lawsuit.

I can be satisfied and dissatisfied at the same time. I can still be concerned about the way things are heading.

I feel I am satisfied because I have adapted to what is, and made the best of it.

I still have two concerns.

The first and major one is the way timeshare is marketed. This concern reflects on the industry as a whole. The lying, scheming and scamming is too widespread to be allowed to go on forever. There is way too much denial and buck-passing about it. There is too much that is not explained in the initial offer, in a manner that the prospect would understand the ramifications. Too much is learned after-the-fact when the owner tries to use what they have purchased.

Despite at least like-for-like exchanges, we still are not getting what we were told we would.

Find a way to sell timeshare truthfully.

I noticed that there now may be a suit addressing that, and it is far more overdue than a rental suit.

My concern is where timeshare is headed now that is is open to anyone, non-owners included. That sure does present an awkward model, one in which resorts preach or imply exclusivity and then owners find out that is not the case, again after-the-fact.

If that is going to be the case, present it up-front. Show it in the initial offer--you can own or you can rent excess inventory, some of it very desireable. But make it clear that it is not a closed system, a members-only country club.

Jim,

Nice post.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Of course, since it agrees with you!

That could be true. LOL.

What I found refreshing about your post is that you are calling it like it is without spin or an agenda. I would appreciate that even if I didn't agree with your conclusions.

I think you said in another post that you were a proponent of the DeHaan model of timesharing exchange. That's fine. Many people have that opinion and it is a valid one. For me, I use it to my advantage, but I don't think it is effective or very good as a trading method for weeks in general. Like for like exchanges is a myth just like the concept of equal justice under the law. Both are appealing to our sense of fair play. But, no matter how we want to believe it, justice is NOT applied equally to everyone. And, exchanges are not equal because if they were, there would be very few opportunities for exchange.

I agree that there are serious issues with RCI and their business practices. I don't like them as a user any more than others here. And, I don't view myself as an RCI apologist. I view myself as more of a pragmatist than anything else. In the long run, RCI will continue to succeed or diminish in importance by providing good service for the money they charge.

I also believe that the best way that an individual consumer can effect change is to vote with their wallet and educate themselves. If everyone did that, RCI couldn't get away with most of what they are doing.

I am not sure why so many on these boards seem to be so excited about the law suits against RCI. If they think that it will help to restore RCI to the good old days, I think that is false hope. The most that can happen is that RCI will be fined or have to payout a settlement. But, who gets one and how much would they get? Very hard to determine. And, the extra costs will probably just be passed on to customers in the form of higher fees and additional use taxes.

RCI may change if they are spun off or sold to another company. But, until that happens, RCI going back to the DeHaan model is about as probable as Carolinian selling all his timeshares and replacing them with points.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I believe those who are pleased with the lawsuits are so because there has been alot of RCI-basher bashing over the years.

Sometimes when I am critical of the RCI-basher-bashers, that makes me an RCI-basher-basher basher.

I believe those who have held their ground against constant criticism are pleased because they see that they are not alone. Fighting a lone battle is . . . lonely.

Consumers tolerate bad service every day without suing companies. The lawsuit stage signifies something more serious than bad service. It signifies a ramping up of the discontent. It signifies that it is more than just meaningless chatter on the Internet by folks who have way too much free time.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Consumers tolerate bad service every day without suing companies. The lawsuit stage signifies something more serious than bad service. It signifies a ramping up of the discontent. It signifies that it is more than just meaningless chatter on the Internet by folks who have way too much free time.

It mostly signifies that an attorney believes they can extract a settlement fee from a company without actually having to prove anythng in a court of law.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I believe those who are pleased with the lawsuits are so because there has been alot of RCI-basher bashing over the years.

Sometimes when I am critical of the RCI-basher-bashers, that makes me an RCI-basher-basher basher.

I believe those who have held their ground against constant criticism are pleased because they see that they are not alone. Fighting a lone battle is . . . lonely.

Consumers tolerate bad service every day without suing companies. The lawsuit stage signifies something more serious than bad service. It signifies a ramping up of the discontent. It signifies that it is more than just meaningless chatter on the Internet by folks who have way too much free time.

JLB,

Nice post. LOL.

I think we should change nonmenclature a bit, though. Perhaps we should label people RCI Basher, RCI Basher^2, RCI Basher^3, etc.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

It mostly signifies that an attorney believes they can extract a settlement fee from a company without actually having to prove anythng in a court of law.

Well, I guess there is one thing good about communism. When a communist regime takes over, isn't the first thing they do is kill all the lawyers?