Question regarding 'Point Systems'

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

First I would like to thank you all for this thread.....it really helps analyze points. Especially BB...thanks.

This is the part that concerns me the most....I am supposed to trust the developer, and point values can change depending upon......any number of reasons pretty much at their discretion (within reason )

Another issue is I have is the incestuousness of the industry....Cendant owns WM and FF.....and RCI....so it can get so convoluted.

I have also looked at several WM properties while they are more than adequate in quality and layout....I would much prefer other timeshares in an area which are more spacious, in a better location, and have more amenities (WM Kona vs Kona Coast II for example).....now Marriott and Sheraton now we are talking...but that takes $$$....and they are not 'true' points resorts??

I did have a brief fling with a mini-system points resorts....Palm Canyon in Palm Springs (which is sold)...and the points system really made sense especially for someone not restricted to school vacation times or weekends because of work......one could stretch one week into more than two weeks if Friday and Saturday nights were skipped. It was hard to book an entire week to deposit for exchange sometimes as the weekend were booked for an extended time period....one had to plan way ahead of time if they planned to book a week for exchange.....and that was pretty much the same as the weeks program....no last minute change of mind advantage.

I am not trying to bash points, WM, or FF here.....just the discussion here still makes me wary of these points programs. I like several attributes of the points programs and may participate in the future but just not now as the weeks program has so far met my needs. They do work for many people and I think that is great and they should enjoy and take full advantage of them....everyone has different needs and wants.

Always learning with you fanatics who really get into the nitty gritty of the subject....thanks again.

That's what it's all about, educating yourself so that you can make the best decision for you.

I think the general principle in timesharing is that it's always good to get in early and then leave just before the curtain goes down on the resort or the resort group.

And, there is tremendous appeal to having that deed knowing that you can always count on that week showing up once per year. That works best for a lot of people.

[lakers Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close lakers]

This thread has focused mostly on the advantage for the developer, but as a points owner in the Hilton system I have taken advantage of the fact that points do not always reflect market value to book high demand weeks in Hawaii using my ownership in Orlando.

I still don't understand why resale for HHV is twice that of other Hilton resorts when I've never had any problems booking the room I wanted using the nine month window for non-home resorts.

Lynn

[ArtsieAng Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close ArtsieAng]

This thread has focused mostly on the advantage for the developer, but as a points owner in the Hilton system I have taken advantage of the fact that points do not always reflect market value to book high demand weeks in Hawaii using my ownership in Orlando.

I still don't understand why resale for HHV is twice that of other Hilton resorts when I've never had any problems booking the room I wanted using the nine month window for non-home resorts.

Lynn

Lynn,

I would love to know more about the benefits for owning a point system....I have been discussing the various systems with my DH for the last couple of weeks trying to make a decision on what system is best suited for our needs.

You mention that you own in the Hilton system...Is Hilton a 'points system' or, is it similar to SVO, which is really a week based system that gives you the option of converting your week to points? I know very little about the Hilton system.

What I think there is not enough talk about is the systems like SVO that offer you point options, but are week based systems....I have been trying to compare this type of system with other types of 'point systems' to see exactly what the differences are.......


Edited to add:

BB, knows a lot about the various point systems.....maybe he could start a thread comparing what the various systems offer, to help us amateurs out... Instead of always discussing 'points vs weeks'.......how about 'points vs points'

BB....if you hate this idea, just ignore me.......

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Angela,

I just busted out my SVO documents and I now recall the details of the program. If you like SVO, you may like Hyatt as well. In Hyatt, you actually buy and own a fixed week at a specific resort. In SVO, you are buying a floating week in a specific unit size or type (such as a lockoff). Then, at 8-months in advance of checkin for SVO and 6-months for Hyatt, you get access to all resorts in the system. As it gets closer to checkin, you can book partial week stays. I agree that this is an incredibly good approach for timesharing. When Marriott creates an overlay point program, it can easily use a model such as SVO or Hyatt.

When you buy from the developer at Hyatt, they make a big deal out of buying and picking a specific unit. I almost did it when I first went to the Hyatt Coconut Plantation. SVO makes a big deal out of its hotel program and starpoints. Their hotel book is really impressive.

When I looked at Marriott, HGVC, Hyatt and HGVC, I liked them all for different reasons. I liked the Hyatt resorts the best, I liked the number of resorts in Marriott the best, I liked the SVO hotel program the best, and I liked the HGVC bonus time program the best.

Marriott could leapfrog past all of its hotel chain rivals by implementing a point system that is superior to all of the others. Being the product manager for creating that product would be one of the jobs that I would consider taking on a boss again for.

The problem is that if I were the product manager for the program, II exchangers would never see a prime Marriott again for exchange. They would have to buy a Marriott gain access to them.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Edited to add:

BB, knows a lot about the various point systems.....maybe he could start a thread comparing what the various systems offer, to help us amateurs out... Instead of always discussing 'points vs weeks'.......how about 'points vs points'

BB....if you hate this idea, just ignore me.......

Angela,

I am seriously thinking about taking 2 years off and writing a book on it.

[short Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close short]

Disadvantage of Starwood

The Starwood program has one feature that is a deal killer for me and that is the inability to move points from one year to another (either forward or back). In this regard it is either use them or lose them in the year they apply to. This creates at least for me the high likelyhood that some points would expire unused. If you start breaking up your weeks for nightly stays which I am likely to do you could end up with fractions that are unusable. In addition if you get to the end of your use year and don't have enough to do anything with they might expire.

I guess I am tainted by having a HGVC points which you can move forward or back, taking 2 week vacation some years and none then next or combining 2 ownerships of gold weeks together and taking a plat. vaction.

Short

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

The Starwood program has one feature that is a deal killer for me and that is the inability to move points from one year to another (either forward or back). In this regard it is either use them or lose them in the year they apply to. This creates at least for me the high likelyhood that some points would expire unused. If you start breaking up your weeks for nightly stays which I am likely to do you could end up with fractions that are unusable. In addition if you get to the end of your use year and don't have enough to do anything with they might expire.

I guess I am tainted by having a HGVC points which you can move forward or back, taking 2 week vacation some years and none then next or combining 2 ownerships of gold weeks together and taking a plat. vaction.

Short

Ooh, that's a good one. I agree that's a showstopper. Can you at least turn those extra staroptions into starpoints?

[ArtsieAng Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close ArtsieAng]

Angela,

I am seriously thinking about taking 2 years off and writing a book on it.

I think it's a great idea......you should do it. There are many point systems out there, and it is difficult to try to understand the pros and cons of each system.

Also, there are now week systems offering points, and more will follow in the future. Personally, I think people have more unanswered questions regarding 'Point vs Point' systems, then 'week vs point system.

It can be a hard choice to make....the more information, the better.

I'll buy the book....so will others......

[ArtsieAng Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close ArtsieAng]

Ooh, that's a good one. I agree that's a showstopper. Can you at least turn those extra staroptions into starpoints?

Short

"Disadvantage of Starwood


The Starwood program has one feature that is a deal killer for me and that is the inability to move points from one year to another (either forward or back). In this regard it is either use them or lose them in the year they apply to. This creates at least for me the high likelyhood that some points would expire unused. If you start breaking up your weeks for nightly stays which I am likely to do you could end up with fractions that are unusable. In addition if you get to the end of your use year and don't have enough to do anything with they might expire.

I guess I am tainted by having a HGVC points which you can move forward or back, taking 2 week vacation some years and none then next or combining 2 ownerships of gold weeks together and taking a plat. vaction."

Short

Hmmmm....I did not know that, and it is true, I can see how you might actually loose points.

I guess I still need to do more investing......

[ArtsieAng Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close ArtsieAng]

Angela,

I just busted out my SVO documents and I now recall the details of the program. If you like SVO, you may like Hyatt as well. In Hyatt, you actually buy and own a fixed week at a specific resort. In SVO, you are buying a floating week in a specific unit size or type (such as a lockoff). Then, at 8-months in advance of checkin for SVO and 6-months for Hyatt, you get access to all resorts in the system. As it gets closer to checkin, you can book partial week stays. I agree that this is an incredibly good approach for timesharing. When Marriott creates an overlay point program, it can easily use a model such as SVO or Hyatt.

When you buy from the developer at Hyatt, they make a big deal out of buying and picking a specific unit. I almost did it when I first went to the Hyatt Coconut Plantation. SVO makes a big deal out of its hotel program and starpoints. Their hotel book is really impressive.


When I looked at Marriott, HGVC, Hyatt and HGVC, I liked them all for different reasons. I liked the Hyatt resorts the best, I liked the number of resorts in Marriott the best, I liked the SVO hotel program the best, and I liked the HGVC bonus time program the best.

I agree with your assessment, there doesn't seem to be one 'perfect' system. They are promoting different benefits.

Marriott could leapfrog past all of its hotel chain rivals by implementing a point system that is superior to all of the others. Being the product manager for creating that product would be one of the jobs that I would consider taking on a boss again for.

Yes.....if only Marriott would implement a point system....I would be totally satisfied.

The problem is that if I were the product manager for the program, II exchangers would never see a prime Marriott again for exchange. They would have to buy a Marriott gain access to them.

Why is that?

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Why is that?

II exchangers would see very few prime weeks because I would negotiate an agreement with II that would allow my owners to get anything they want within II without trading power limits and I get to choose what the deposits to II are. Very few of them would be prime.

I would allow most of these reservations of the prime weeks for owners. And, I would have a smokin' rental program complete with deals with the top rental sites. Not timesharing sites. Hotel rental sites. We would offer bulk wholesale inventory to these sites. Of course, the units would be only those offered to the rental program and most of the profits would go directly back to the owners. Marriott's cut would be about 35%.

So, owners would get top trading power with II and a terrific rental option with no hassles. And, availability for prime weeks.

What once went to II exchangers will now be going to renters and the profits will be going mostly to owners.

Now, this will look like II is renting prime units through its former sister companies like Hotels.com and expedia. But, the inventory will actually be coming from Marriott in the owner rental program.

There would be a VIP program with progessive benefits for owning more units.

All of this would be totally legitimate. Marriott owners would be benefiting far more than they are today from their ownerships and II exchangers will be getting far fewer good exchanges into Marriott resorts.

I believe this is happening today with other hotel brands. Marriott is the last to go. When it happens, the difference in availability to II exchangers will be dramatic.

[ArtsieAng Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close ArtsieAng]

II exchangers would see very few prime weeks because I would negotiate an agreement with II that would allow my owners to get anything they want within II without trading power limits and I get to choose what the deposits to II are. Very few of them would be prime.

I would allow most of these reservations of the prime weeks for owners. And, I would have a smokin' rental program complete with deals with the top rental sites. Not timesharing sites. Hotel rental sites. We would offer bulk wholesale inventory to these sites. Of course, the units would be only those offered to the rental program and most of the profits would go directly back to the owners. Marriott's cut would be about 35%.

So, owners would get top trading power with II and a terrific rental option with no hassles. And, availability for prime weeks.

What once went to II exchangers will now be going to renters and the profits will be going mostly to owners.

Now, this will look like II is renting prime units through its former sister companies like Hotels.com and expedia. But, the inventory will actually be coming from Marriott in the owner rental program.

There would be a VIP program with progessive benefits for owning more units.

All of this would be totally legitimate. Marriott owners would be benefiting far more than they are today from their ownerships and II exchangers will be getting far fewer good exchanges into Marriott resorts.

I believe this is happening today with other hotel brands. Marriott is the last to go. When it happens, the difference in availability to II exchangers will be dramatic.

Interesting.....As far as prime weeks go with Marriott, I believe that the owners are already getting most of the prime weeks. They are exchanging one prime for another prime through the Marriott preference at II.....II seems to offer mostly shoulder, or off-season weeks to non-Marriott trades....for the most part. Although, you can get lucky. It really seems to depend on how much demand there is for a particular resort.

I know that SVO will not guarantee what week they will deposit in II, for your exchange. They will not even guarantee that a platinum week will be deposited for a platinum week owner. On their very hot properties, they seem to keep most platinum weeks for owners. However, I have seen a bunch of platinum weeks at some of their resorts...Once again, I'm sure demand has everything to do with this.

I am not sure about the rentals.....Thinking about all the problems RCI is having due to rentals...perhaps a similar situation could occur???

One thing I do like about Marriott, is they have a pretty good reputation with their clientèle. I would hate for rentals to compromise that relationship.

I do think the Marriott system could be improved by adding a point option, and an in-house trade option for Marriott owners.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I forgot to mention that I would create a direct exchange program with SVO, HGVC, Hyatt, Four Seasons, Grand Mayan and other top brands. $49 for the exchange fee.

The rentals are only for owners who want to rent. Across the whole market, 12.3% of timeshare intervals are rented. So that part of the program is for them. I would probably create a program like Bluegreens where you pay your maintenance fee with points leaving the balance for partial week stays. And, those units will be used to put into the rental pool. So, in essence, you have no hassle rentals that directly reduces or pays your MFs. That will help owners who tend to let their weeks expire. If there are excess profits from the rental program, they go back to reduce operational costs of the club.

Owners would have access to bonus time. $79/night for studios, $89/night for 1 bedrooms, $99/night for 2 bedroom units less than 45-days from check in.

The point program would be $2000 to join and would be non-transferrable. It would be included in any developer purchase.

Membership would be free for the first 6 months for all owners who wish to sign up and commit their weeks to the program.

Your week works exactly as it does today upto 6 months in advance of checkin in which case it is automatically converted to points.

Obviously, a lot of details would need to be worked out like the operational issues and budgets. But, that gives you a high level overview of the types of concepts that would be included in the program.

[taffy19 Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close taffy19]

Hmmmm....I did not know that, and it is true, I can see how you might actually loose points.

I guess I still need to do more investing......

.... and certainly after reading this. You always get offered less for your money eventually.

Marriott points have devaluated too over the years because it takes more points today to take that trip around the world (2 airline tickets, 7 day stay at their highest category hotel plus a rental car). Now you end up without a car rental in a lower category hotel for the same amount of points they offered us when we joined the Marriott system.

I read every post that some of these people write because they know the system inside out.

These points are not the same points that a point-based system is based on as far as I can see. They are extra features of a week-based system to make it more attractive.

[taffy19 Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close taffy19]

II exchangers would see very few prime weeks because I would negotiate an agreement with II that would allow my owners to get anything they want within II without trading power limits and I get to choose what the deposits to II are. Very few of them would be prime.

Boca, I am under the impression that Marriott is going to be handling their own reservation system soon as well as the internal exchanges too. If you want to make exchanges outside the sytem, you will have to belong to II or another exchange company. They may keep the best weeks in the system but I haven't heard this rumor.

Marriott has rented our timeshare week out for us and kept 35% of the rent. At some resorts it is 50% but the week may not rent and you do not get it back for personal use once you have signed a rental contract. That's why we rented it ourselves from then on.