Timesharing . . . Has It's Run It's Course?

[lawren2 Malibu Beach Barbie & A Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close lawren2]

Dan Mann, a 2007 graduate of North High School, and his Cornell teammate won first place and a $15,000 cash award in the Cornell Hospitality Business Plan Competition. The two budding entrepreneurs created "Fushi Sushi" with the vision of "redefining the sushi experience" and capitalizing on the demand for healthy, quick-service fare.

Fushi Sushi beat out 27 other concepts including second place "Ward Wine Shop and Dining Room," and "Exclusive Route," a company that would offer "time shares" for luxury RVs.

Competitors were required to submit full business plans of their original concepts and pitch their ideas to a team of business leaders.

[bnoble Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bnoble]

People getting into TSing now are generally not aware of what we had in the past and the reason people are bitter, resentful and disillusioned with the system.

But those things were only possible because the system was ridiculously inefficient, in an economic sense. The same things that made it possible for an informed TUG/TS4Mer to "work the system" also left someone else with the (very) short end of the stick. Over time, things tend to get more transparent, not less, and as they do, the system has to get "more efficient" because more people understand the value of things---meaning those awesome gets from the past become harder and harder over time. And you should expect that trend to continue if not accelerate.

So, from our little parochial point of view, yes, timesharing may have "run its course" in the sense that it is getting harder and harder to get a dollar for a dime. But, we aren't "the market" by any stretch of the imagination. More broadly, the developers are still selling a lot of product, and the people buying it are, by and large, satisfied with it.

I posted this on another thread, either here or OY, but there is a downside to the red pill.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Inefficent? For whom? The Crystal deHaan system was a lot more user friendly, and most importantly balanced the health of the entire system, including members, HOA's and the exchange company. Cendant came in with the attitude that it was fine to throw everybody else under the bus as a long it made them an extra nickel in the short term. Cendant has not seemed to care that by sandbagging HOA's and members who bought depending on the 45 day window that RCI itself heavily promoted, they are kicking the financial props out from under many HOA's. In a few years, when RCI starts scratching its head wondering where all the resorts and members went, they need to have a mirror on the wall to gaze into. For short term gains, they are poisoning the system for the long term. A partially transparent system like we have today with RCI is mostly efficient for the well connected developer who can smooze RCI into giving it an exchange value it does not deserve. There are far too many very high demand and low supply weeks with mediocre numbers and too many dime a dozen weeks with high numbers in RCI's numbers racket.

But those things were only possible because the system was ridiculously inefficient, in an economic sense. The same things that made it possible for an informed TUG/TS4Mer to "work the system" also left someone else with the (very) short end of the stick. Over time, things tend to get more transparent, not less, and as they do, the system has to get "more efficient" because more people understand the value of things---meaning those awesome gets from the past become harder and harder over time. And you should expect that trend to continue if not accelerate.

So, from our little parochial point of view, yes, timesharing may have "run its course" in the sense that it is getting harder and harder to get a dollar for a dime. But, we aren't "the market" by any stretch of the imagination. More broadly, the developers are still selling a lot of product, and the people buying it are, by and large, satisfied with it.

I posted this on another thread, either here or OY, but there is a downside to the red pill.

[BobbyO1967 Member Find all posts View Profile Close BobbyO1967]

It hasn't run its course but we still screwed up

By "we" I mean those of us who do this every day.

We never put together an appropriate exit model. We literally thought everyone would pass away and the timeshare would travel through probate. Boy, were we wrong.

In my hometown of Newport, July/August weeks still fetch 18-21 on the secondary market. Inn Seasons took a look at two of the resorts, the BayClub could always be stitched back together for a day drive program, Wyndham is bringing a team back.

(By the way, my firm does "liquidation" for the maintenance fee. Friends don't let friends pay $2,795 for the same service.)

What I hope happens next, and why I stay in the business of both timeshares and vacation clubs, is more specialization to the needs of the customer including the "get out" question. I'd love to see this product so mainstream, I can have a space inside of a Macy's some day.

Until then, it's all about transitioning and trying to protect good owners from the sharks that have shown up.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I have said this before, but our happiest days timesharing were way before I ever knew there was a system to be worked. It was in those first several years when all we knew was what a Guide told us.

Then came RCI.com (1997) and internet timeshare forums, and we learned what we were missing.

The informed years began, the sharing and comparing with others, and a few good exchanges came along.

Then, because of disclosure provided by myself and others, I saw it fall apart. The crest was in 2004, and it has been in decline ever since. I have documented it in the several SW FL in January threads.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Yes, you are probably right, internet forums should be reserved only for those who have positive things to say about the forum topic.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Inefficent? For whom? The Crystal deHaan system was a lot more user friendly, and most importantly balanced the health of the entire system, including members, HOA's and the exchange company. Cendant came in with the attitude that it was fine to throw everybody else under the bus as a long it made them an extra nickel in the short term. .

The system as originally designed was doomed to failure from the start as very few weeks have equal value yet it attempted to shoehorn themmall into 7 day for 7 day trades. Sure it was great for those that realized they could take a junk week and get a prime ranked resort - but before long people caught on. Then we have the trade value imposed (read POINTS under another guise) that allegedly leveled the playing field but they were hidden and it simply isn't possible - without some type of "change back" or "buy up" system to make unequal units/times/views/etc equal when the limit is a 7 day for 7 day exchange.

As in reality there was always a points program under the covers it was inevitable that it would become the real means of trade.

As for "support of the HOA's" you seem to think that RCI/II whoever OWES it to Associations to give their poor value times artificial value by offering up, for free, mre valuable units to those owners. That subsidy was never intended and should not be expected as my resorts do not owe any others a free ride. each resort needs to maximize what THEY offer to make it worth the fees away from any bonus trade value and then use that real value in a fair marketplace for use/trade or rent.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

As for working the system, yes, those who were dedicated enough to learn what they had and how to work with it, which was a daily process for many years, were able to do better than those who did little more than pick up the phone and call a Guide.

Now, even being dedicated does not help.

[chriskre Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close chriskre]

Honestly if you had dumped your mugwump swampies and bought into a mini system then you'd understand that timesharing is not dead. The value must be now earned by a little loyalty to the system that rewards you with a fair value vacation, not an exploitation of the uneducated masses subsidizing just a few savvy owners like you used to be.

I'm still for gaming the system where I can but I also think that owning a mini is where the most dependable vacations can be had.

BG, DVC, HGVC, Wyndham and the others still have great inventory if you bother to buy something of value and pay a fair MF. $100 a night might not be a giveaway price for a 2 bedroom in SW Florida at the Hilton affiliates for Mr. JLB, but to me that's more than a fair price for a nice oceanfront TS with 2 full bedrooms and 2 full baths and a balcony to watch those fabulous SW sunsets from with a margarita in hand.

Can I get this trade in RCI? Maybe, sometimes and sometimes for even less money but I'm not counting on it. When it happens I'll be dancing in the streets and thanking my RCI fairy god mother but when it doesn't happen I'm not gonna be mad. Vacation is not a civil right, it's a blessing.

Can I get this trade in HGVC? Yes I can and you could have also had you given HGVC a try instead of crying foul about RCI not letting you into HGVC.
BTW renting those SW Florida HGVC's outside of the club directly from the resort is around $350 to $450 a night.
Guess what? Many people do rent directly from the resort at those prices. I know many of my co-workers who do and think nothing of it.

I'm glad you have found your little place in SW Florida paradise. I just hope that you will one day find it in your heart to stop belittling what others here still find a nice way to vacation. Hopefully you'll be spending more time on the golf course than here b-tching about TS's and your hate for RCI.

I'm just sayin......... Now that God has blessed you with a little slice of paradise, get a life and enjoy it before your game is up.

[GrayFal Silver Contributor and supermoderator Find all posts View Profile Close GrayFal]

Chriskre quote

Honestly if you had dumped your mugwump swampies and bought into a mini system then you'd understand that timesharing is not dead. The value must be now earned by a little loyalty to the system that rewards you with a fair value vacation, not an exploitation of the uneducated masses subsidizing just a few savvy owners like you used to be.

I'm still for gaming the system where I can but I also think that owning a mini is where the most dependable vacations can be had.

BG, DVC, HGVC, Wyndham and the others still have great inventory if you bother to buy something of value and pay a fair MF. $100 a night might not be a giveaway price for a 2 bedroom in SW Florida at the Hilton affiliates for Mr. JLB, but to me that's more than a fair price for a nice oceanfront TS with 2 full bedrooms and 2 full baths and a balcony to watch those fabulous SW sunsets from with a margarita in hand.

Can I get this trade in RCI? Maybe, sometimes and sometimes for even less money but I'm not counting on it. When it happens I'll be dancing in the streets and thanking my RCI fairy god mother but when it doesn't happen I'm not gonna be mad. Vacation is not a civil right, it's a blessing.

Can I get this trade in HGVC? Yes I can and you could have also had you given HGVC a try instead of crying foul about RCI not letting you into HGVC.
BTW renting those SW Florida HGVC's outside of the club directly from the resort is around $350 to $450 a night.
Guess what? Many people do rent directly from the resort at those prices. I know many of my co-workers who do and think nothing of it.

I'm glad you have found your little place in SW Florida paradise. I just hope that you will one day find it in your heart to stop belittling what others here still find a nice way to vacation. Hopefully you'll be spending more time on the golf course than here b-tching about TS's and your hate for RCI.

I'm just sayin......... Now that God has blessed you with a little slice of paradise, get a life and enjoy it before your game is up.

Very well said Chris - being able to change with the current situation is key.

[chriskre Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close chriskre]

Very well said Chris - being able to change with the current situation is key.

Too bad he can't read it.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Of course it is impossible to have exactly equal trades. That's why the traditional weeks system had trading within a band or range. That worked. Now come the nitpickers who want to trade based on exact numbers, but you know what? What is really totally impossible is getting exact numbers exactly right. So an exact number system is always going to cheat some members and let others always have trades up. Part of the problem with exact numbers is some of the short cuts like the overaveraging of groups of weeks that occurs in both RCI Points and Points Lite that institutionalizes the overpointing of the weaker weeks within those groups and shortchanges the stronger weeks. There is also some regional overaveraging within the system. If you still traded within a range, the overaveraging is something that would come out in the wash, but not when trades are dictated by exact numbers.

The key is supply and demand, not whether a resort is ''prime'' or ''ranked''. Sure some of those may well be the ones in most demand but not all of them. When a published number system gives lower numbers to some of the really hard to get trades than they do to the dime-a-dozen always availibile trades, as both of RCI's published numbers systems do, then something is badly screwed up.

As to devising a system that keeps resorts financially healthy, this is something any exchange system that thinks long term should consider. If an exchange system changes the system in ways that financially undermine resorts, then they are eventually destroying their own customer base, which is suicidal for themselves. Most of what people like you call a subsidy was never a subsidy in the first place. Orlando owners think they have the ultimate timeshare, but the real truth is that Orlando is overbuilt. The reason just about any blue week from anywhere would trade into Orlando most of the year is that in a supply and demand system, their values are truly equal. When Orlando people demand higher numbers than supply and demand would dictate, they are really demanding that they be given institutionialized trades up. That is also why Orlando people consistently oppose a fully transparent system that would reveal the underlying numbers behind the points lite values. To keep Orlando's artificial trading power up, it is essential to keep those numbers hidden.

The system as originally designed was doomed to failure from the start as very few weeks have equal value yet it attempted to shoehorn themmall into 7 day for 7 day trades. Sure it was great for those that realized they could take a junk week and get a prime ranked resort - but before long people caught on. Then we have the trade value imposed (read POINTS under another guise) that allegedly leveled the playing field but they were hidden and it simply isn't possible - without some type of "change back" or "buy up" system to make unequal units/times/views/etc equal when the limit is a 7 day for 7 day exchange.

As in reality there was always a points program under the covers it was inevitable that it would become the real means of trade.

As for "support of the HOA's" you seem to think that RCI/II whoever OWES it to Associations to give their poor value times artificial value by offering up, for free, mre valuable units to those owners. That subsidy was never intended and should not be expected as my resorts do not owe any others a free ride. each resort needs to maximize what THEY offer to make it worth the fees away from any bonus trade value and then use that real value in a fair marketplace for use/trade or rent.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Very well said Chris - being able to change with the current situation is key.

As another poster pointed out, it is the instability these days of what used to be a relatively stable and dependable exchange system that is frustrating many owners. Not knowing what other changes are around the corner leads many to conclude that the change they need to make is going back to cash and forgetting timeshare altogether. That is what is hurting timesharing.

And with RCI's cheap rentals to the general public, they have made cash the most cost effective choice for many anyway, especially if they want to go to the overbuilt places like Orlando where there is always a glut of inventory on the market.

[GrayFal Silver Contributor and supermoderator Find all posts View Profile Close GrayFal]

As another poster pointed out, it is the instability these days of what used to be a relatively stable and dependable exchange system that is frustrating many owners. Not knowing what other changes are around the corner leads many to conclude that the change they need to make is going back to cash and forgetting timeshare altogether. That is what is hurting timesharing.

And with RCI's cheap rentals to the general public, they have made cash the most cost effective choice for many anyway, especially if they want to go to the overbuilt places like Orlando where there is always a glut of inventory on the market.

Agree, which is why Chris's comment about the mini systems is right on target.

[taffy19 Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close taffy19]

To me, this is the crux of the problem with the industry - changing the ownership model AND exchanging "rules".
People getting into TSing now are generally not aware of what we had in the past and the reason people are bitter, resentful and disillusioned with the system.

TSing still represents a good value for me as the places/resorts I tend to travel to are much more expensive renting directly from the resort/other owners then it costs me to use as a TS owner.
And I have been able to change my exchanging "style" to better fit the current realities of the "big 2" and use smaller, customer/owner friendly companies instead.

I agree with you that you have to be flexible and adjust to the new way of timesharing or get out and forget about it rather than stay bitter.

I feel that the whole industry is turning against us except for some of the little independent timeshare resorts that are out there still and there are many from what I read. You own one of them or even more.

It is the same for the little independent exchange companies too where they seem to cater to the customer first.

I wouldn't buy from a big developer again even if they paid me. I agree with Barndweller that they changed the industry for the worst and customers hardly count. JMHO, of course.

I also believe that it will bite them in the butt one day and may be sooner than they would like.