Timesharing . . . Has It's Run It's Course?

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Sometimes enough high profile publicizing of the flaws in what a corporation is doing to its customers can have an impact. In this 2-year long campaign, Delta was forced to reverse the anti-customer ''enhancements'' it made to its frequent flyer campaign:

Save SkyMiles!

Of course the point at which Delta finally started to wake up to their PR problem was when the SSM movement started a billboard campaign around a key Delta airport and ran a large ad in USA Today.

Of course, the self-styled ''cockroaches'' among US Airways customers forced US Airways to reverse its ff ''enhancements'' in a matter of weeks by putting the heat to them in publicizing how they were screwing customers.

I don't think whining is the answer. Companies make decisions based on monetary return so the way you make a company change is to impact the rate of return. This can happen by moving business away from them to one that offers more value. Competition can force change but you have to have a good alternative to the RCI business model. So I have a question. If you could change things at RCI for the better what would you change.

[chriskre Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close chriskre]

The future? The future is not going to get any better. Wyndham has made several changes over the past couple of years, and you know what? It's only contributed more to their bottom line. The employees suggesting these unpopular changes are probably promoted to high levels by now, because they increased profits!

The problem is that there is not enough whining going on to make these companies notice. I totally disagree with you.

I respect your disagreeing with me.
I can take it.

True, Wyndham has made a few changes that make the megarenters and the gamers of the system unhappy, but I still see value in owning Wyndham for the mini-system. They probably won't be getting any more RCI deposits from me and that's okay by me and obviously okay by them too. RCI is the one losing out on the exchange fee. I'll just book internally with my free transactions. There is still alot of internal inventory in nice places that I want to go. The value is still there. It might not be the killer value of the years of the 28K deposits but Wyndham is still providing me nice vacations at a fair price.

What we need to do is be proactive with our own HOA's to see that they get the information out to members on the alternatives to RCI. Volunteer to write an article for the HOA newsletter, for example.

DAE is a major competitor to RCI in the Australia market, where it first started, so it shows that it can be done. In fact, if you want to trade into Australia, you are much more likely to get there with DAE than either RCI or II.

I think the dynamics of RCI allowing the combination of points lite from different weeks is also going to downgrade the exchange experience of the high value week owners with RCI since it will create more competition for such weeks from people without similar weeks to trade and make it harder for those people to get like for like trades. This is going to open the door big time for SFX in that part of the market.

But the key is getting the word out to timesharers.

Funny thing is that my owner run resort is managed just fine and RCI will only get one of my weeks cause I bought them to use them.

I do share DAE and SFX with others when I talk timeshares in the pool or by the BBQ. It's true many do not know about alternative exchange companies but honestly giving DAE my week wouldn't get me what I want unless I was going to Europe or Australia so I'm not sure they're the answer, and SFX won't take my two star converted motel anyway so we don't really have lots of options other than RCI weeks and RCI points for deposit anyhow.

Unfortunately for those of us who own the real old original timeshares like the ones on the beaches in Florida, we really don't have any other options except RCI. Even II isn't an option at my resort. It is what it is and not as it should be.

And that means more changes coming down the road. And the owners will get further squeezed.

And that's why you can't put all your TS eggs in the RCI basket.
You must diversify if you are going to play the game.
That's why I am trying to own only biennials in many systems so I'm not repeating the mistakes I made in the early years.

[ace2000 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ace2000]

I respect your disagreeing with me.
I can take it.

LOL - and thank you for your respectful tone! I'm really not that emotionally attached to this issue, even though there's about 4 or 5 posts on this thread with my name on them.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I don't think whining is the answer. Companies make decisions based on monetary return so the way you make a company change is to impact the rate of return. This can happen by moving business away from them to one that offers more value. Competition can force change but you have to have a good alternative to the RCI business model. So I have a question. If you could change things at RCI for the better what would you change.

Over the years RCI has been responsive to it's members comments on forums like this. Those of us who pay really, really close attention can see some signs that they may be this time too. For instance, January 2013 stuff is much different than January 2012 stuff.

[rdcigc Member Find all posts View Profile Close rdcigc]

I would like to ask again what would you change at RCI if you could.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I would like to ask again what would you change at RCI if you could.

Go ahead.

[chriskre Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close chriskre]

I would like to ask again what would you change at RCI if you could.

Well since you're asking........

The ability to see all inventory regardless of deposit so we'd know what values to shoot for or save up for. You can already do it with RCI points so why not offer it with TPU's as well.

The ability to use cash to complete an exchange like DVC is now allowing. A fair price to buy those TPU's that one is short like 1 or 2 instead of having to pay $99 to combine. For example I only get 21 TPU's but my goal exchange is 25 TPU's. I don't want to have to combine two weeks to get it. I'd much rather pay say $10 or $15 a point to complete this reservation instead of having to wait 2 or 3 years to have enough TPU's to take that one vacation.
I've just done this with DVC where I was able to buy a few points instead of having to borrow ahead. I got my ressie and Disney made a few bucks. A win-win IMO.

The ability to search for a whole year at a time in RCI points instead of only 30 days at a time. That search is so cumbersome I hardly use it. I usually just search weeks in points because it's so cumbersome. I have a feeling that's why stuff sits there longer as well.

The ability to have RCI email you with inventory that matches your preferences like redweek and ebay has. For example if there is a bulk deposit of say my favorite resorts it makes sense that RCI would let me have the option to get a friendly email that my target resort is now available if I want it.
How hard could that be to set up?

The ability to use RCI Mastercard rewards for exchanges not just for the exchange fees. The ability to use rewards towards last call rates would be nice.

I think these would be where I personally would start in improving RCI.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I would like to ask again what would you change at RCI if you could.

Most importantly, I would bring the rentals to the general public to a screeching halt. That is far and away the most damaging thing they are doing to timesharing which negatively impacts timesharers in a variety of ways.

As to Points Lite, they either need to bring full transparency so we could trust the numbers, or junk the numbers system. Full transparency means revealing how it is they conjure up the numbers and the data behind it. Even if they only gave the data to the resorts, like they do with the data on award status, this would be a big check on the honesty of the system.

Restoraton of trading within a band or range, like things worked before Points Lite, would also be a huge plus. Losing that in Points Lite meant that there was more bad than good in Points Lite.

[longtimer Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close longtimer]

Most importantly, I would bring the rentals to the general public to a screeching halt. That is far and away the most damaging thing they are doing to timesharing which negatively impacts timesharers in a variety of ways.

I am not part of RCI, but rather II. And I see II also making some unfriendly changes to TS owners. I agree that public rentals really cut down on exchange opportunities and would like to see this greatly LIMITED. However, with the mind of a business person, I understand the reasoning for the rentals. RCI and II have a much greater chance of gaining money for the rentals than taking the risk that someone might want to use an available week for an exchange. Perhaps there could be a compromise here. What if a week was ONLY available for exchange up until three months out? After that, RCI/II could offer the week for rental to members (they'd still get some money for those who can take last minute vacations). To increase the odds of being able to rent the week, I would open up rentals to the general public during the last 30 days. RCI and II could market this to the public as discounted vacation rentals.
The only downside I see to this is that people who have low-value resorts in over-built areas would see a decrease in trade value to prevent a glut of potentially unused weeks.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I am not part of RCI, but rather II. And I see II also making some unfriendly changes to TS owners. I agree that public rentals really cut down on exchange opportunities and would like to see this greatly LIMITED. However, with the mind of a business person, I understand the reasoning for the rentals. RCI and II have a much greater chance of gaining money for the rentals than taking the risk that someone might want to use an available week for an exchange. Perhaps there could be a compromise here. What if a week was ONLY available for exchange up until three months out? After that, RCI/II could offer the week for rental to members (they'd still get some money for those who can take last minute vacations). To increase the odds of being able to rent the week, I would open up rentals to the general public during the last 30 days. RCI and II could market this to the public as discounted vacation rentals.
The only downside I see to this is that people who have low-value resorts in over-built areas would see a decrease in trade value to prevent a glut of potentially unused weeks.

Careful, there is a limit to negative comments about exchange companies on this forum. People are counting.

As far as rentals go, the rules have already been set, by court order, for awhile. Deposits must be made available for exchange only for 30 days if deposited far out (a year or more I believe), and must also be made available as exchanges if deposited shorter out (in addition, if they are offered as rentals), I believe.

I've saved the agreement, so could check the specifics.

However, at this point, whether exchange companies rent deposits may be immaterial. The cat is outta the bag. Damn cat. Bad bag.

There are copious rentals for prices that make paying an initial investment absurd, many of them from victims of the timeshare industry . . . people who cannot use their timeshares, yet have been provided no exit strategy by the industry. In order to get them to buy, they have been told that timeshares are like other real estate, and continue to increase in value, although that is not a analogy comparison any more.

One change I have suggested, which, God forbid, also sugests that I accept the current adulterated version of Weak Weeks, is to make everything in the 45-Day Window available for one deposit, any one deposit, so that all weeks at all resorts have some value, and, perhaps more value than they ever had. An 8 could get anything, but only after the annointed have had their pick.

Or, make everything in the 45-Day Window available for one deposit for a short time period after deposit. There is a difference in the two ideas.

Another almost-obvious suggestion would be that all deposits at least be able to get themselves, as there is no better test of equal trade than that. If you are new to our lengthy cussions about Weak Weeks, we have found many instances where deposits cannot get themselves because what it takes to get them has been unfairly jacked up.

Something also needs to be done about the fact that it appears that for approximately half the trades that members previously got for one deposit, they no longer can. Doubling or tripling or quadrupling the price of anything, by anyone, is uncalled for, especially during a recession.

In our case, as I posted yesterday, for trades I have a record of, going back to 1992, even though we now own better traders than we did for many of them,

. . . for 62 exchanges I have a record of, we cannot now get 35 of them with one deposit

In Weak Weeks, I have documented that a trade into a 50-year-old motel conversion studio with a 2-bedroom purpose-built Gold Crown, would cost $2800.

See, now you did it, got me trying to improve something that should not even be wasted energy on. As someone who one-putts for a 10 might say, "Like whip cream on a +^rd."

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

So, are we talk about TS development industrial, resale industrial, or exchange and rental industrial?

I think developer continue get loans to back their note collecting from selling the TS they build. And they continue sell what they build.

Resale is pretty bad, that is what cause the feeling "no way out". I now get so many post card to ask for my TS so they could collect money from me and do nothing. Some are proudly point that Mariott plan to spin out their TS as a prove that this is the last chance I have to give out my TS.

rental is bad mainly because current situation we have, more unit available, less people want to spend on vacation.

Exchange has go through changes, now it is less and less likely the exchange is worth any especially with all the rentals there.

If the developer countine can sell, I doubt you will see the end of TS. However, the era of using exchange from RCI as a selling point may goes to tubes now. But that is on the tube for the last 10 years for 80% of the owners as I know. It just now there are maybe 95% owners now.

I thought the old advice buy for use is prob. still the best.

Jya-Ning

[ace2000 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ace2000]

If the developer countine can sell, I doubt you will see the end of TS. However, the era of using exchange from RCI as a selling point may goes to tubes now.
Jya-Ning

First, developers will sell as long as the public is naive to the real value of timeshares. That percentage is going down. Today, how many people know that you can buy a $30,000 timeshare on eBay for less than $1? More than the number that knew a couple of years ago, and there will be a higher number five years from now.

I don't feel sorry for the resorts that have an active sales force, they can just resell the foreclosures and deed-backs. What happens to the resorts with a minimal or no sales force?

RCI (and II) will continue to be a selling point because the salespeople will not tell you during the presentation what the real cost of an exchange is.

Second, as far as suggested improvements for RCI... ask yourself the question - how will the Wyndham shareholders feel about my change? I can GUARANTEE you that if your suggestion cuts profits, you will never see that change.

By the way, Wyndham is currently approaching its 5-year high on the stock market. Yes, I know Wyndham is into far more than timeshares... but, take a look at specifically how the timeshare segment of Wyndham is doing.

[ace2000 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ace2000]

Second, as far as suggested improvements for RCI... ask yourself the question - how will the Wyndham shareholders feel about my change? I can GUARANTEE you that if your suggestion cuts profits, you will never see that change.

Yes, this means that the RCI rental concept will never go away. And there will be plenty of boardroom meetings dreaming of ways on how they can make that segment be even more profitable.

Sorry, as much as I hate the concept, continuing the negative drumbeat on the RCI rentals will achieve absolutely nothing over time.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

I do own both Wyndham shares and its TS.

5 years ago, people look at the eBay timshare resale, and believe the TS industrial will be ended

5 years now, Wyndham's share is closed to its all time high, and that is when its TS sale is about 1/2 of its revenue. People don't buy stock because they think it make money in the pass, they buy because they think they can countinue make money in that rate or better.

So, people actually owns the share believe although the information is available on line, there are enough naive people will buy. Or they are more naive than the TS owner that buys from the developer.

As to sharehold on the company move, I can honestly tell you, I don't really care what kind of move they take, or if the move make or loss since those specific move really will not drill into detail in any earning presentation. Most people will know that the bigger move or companies big direction. I do care if their overall approach is make sense and has cutting edge than their other competitors.

As owner, I can pretty claim both the Wyndham and the RCI is killing the value of what I have owned even if I use them for prime personal use. And I don't know if you can claim it will really make big on their bottom line.

As a share holder, if they mix the trust funds and their corp money, they will be in much bigger trouble.

But most of the companies that owns TS branch does not go in down direction at this moment. Most are either in the recover direction, or in high part of their stock price, if not all time it will be around 4 year high.

So, the TS developer industrial is not in any time hurry to end.

Don't know about resale though, 5 years ago, I know most Wyndham bid will have taker in eBay, now it maybe less than 50%. The worse part is, 5 years ago, DW is using eBay most of the time, now she is using AMAZON more, and it has no TS there. And I have not yet see any other strong platform there for resale.

As to exchange, you and I have to pay RCI membership fee (that is how Wyndham move money out from trust to the corp legally) or II fee, it will not get changed, so although its exchange transaction continue goes down, its revnue is still kept in some constant over 5 years now. As long as RCI/II can get those big corp lined up, they have enough membership fee as income base. I believe the rental part is up because they have higher rental charge, not because they have more rental transaction, and these rentals are more close to the high end part. RCI's own rental part is more close to the developer's trap now to get naive come and buy. But instead of expense, it is making money for them. So, exchange is going down. I also don't believe other exchange company really pick up the slack in a higher enough rate. But it is what happen, most of the exchanges will eventually happen inside the developer build internal exchange companies.

It is there for the last 10, 20, 30 years. Yet, the industrial continue survive. So ...

Jya-Ning

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Yes, this means that the RCI rental concept will never go away. And there will be plenty of boardroom meetings dreaming of ways on how they can make that segment be even more profitable.

Sorry, as much as I hate the concept, continuing the negative drumbeat on the RCI rentals will achieve absolutely nothing over time.

What it can do is help encourage more resort chains like Seasons to bail out of RCI and move to another exchange company. But it does not help to just repeat them online on sites like TS4MS. We need to be repeating them to our HOA's. and getting other members to do so. Regrettably, the newsletter of the Seasons chain where they announced their switch to II and fired a withering broadside at RCI over rentals and points, has cycled off their website. It would be great to be able to send a link to it to our HOA leaders.