Timesharing . . . Has It's Run It's Course?

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Since you do not reference a specific post, it is hard to tell what you are claiming that Ace said that is untrue. However, I know I caught you on a major untruth in post #76.

Ace, you continue to throw out statements that are untrue. The person who "came up with" the rental program left a while ago.

The RCI book is more fun to sell. Beyond that, Wyndham can't keep up with itself. Besides, not all Wyndham owners can exchange with each other due to "conversion" issues.

The cost of the exchange is laid out in the rules.

I think you're like on of these talk radio clowns. Say a bunch of stuff that sounds mean and/or edgy, hope no one ever calls you on it.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Yeah, and Seasons, Worldmark, and Fairfield fled RCI because of RCI Points. The only way Cendant was able to get Worldmark and Fairfield back for RCI was to buy the companies. Seasons fired a withering broadside at RCI over both rentals and points in its newsletter when it announced its switch to II. I wish that were still up on their website as it really spelled out the problems that RCI was creating.

Yes, and Disney was so unhappy with it that they renewed their RCI affiliation this past December. That sure showed RCI who's boss!

RCI and Disney Vacation Club Announce Renewal of Affiliation Agreement

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

They can et loans if properly run

Hey, why can't the timeshares themselves stand as collateral with the lenders!!!???

Interesting question. The answer is that an independent resort, not depending on overpriced retail sales, can and has obtained massive loans (for a resort with a $7.2 Million annual budget a $3.5 Million loan is BIG!) back when the common belief was "timeshare associations cannot get bank loans" in 2007. Our resort was able to produce audited figures that were accepted to obtain the loan for 5 years with an option to renew for 5 more. At the 3 year mark the bank was willing to renegotiate the loan, based on past performance and future outlook, for a lower interest rate and a fixed term for a total of 10 years from the original loan date.

Developers / developer managed resorts cannot get loans because costs are too high and the dependency on new sales too risky. A well run owner controlled resort can as they have no overhead and every dollar goes where it belongs - into the operation and maintenance of the resort. Remember an Association has no assets - the buildings, property belong to the owners. The only revenue stream is future fees. Show strength in collections and stability of fees / ownership and banks will make loans. We know because we did it. Now they come to us asking if we need more! Great place to be.

[bnoble Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close bnoble]

Yeah, and Seasons, Worldmark, and Fairfield fled RCI because of RCI Points.

Apparently from Disney's point of view, those sins have been forgiven. What's more, Fairfield did not flee, but rather started doing fixed week conversions at some resorts primarily at II affiliations. They also did not come back at Fairfield purchase time as those affiliations were retained at II until just this year, when new purchasers at those resorts are now enrolled in RCI; previously they had been enrolled at II. WorldMark inventory remains primarily in II, though some inventory also goes to RCI. WorldMark owners remain able to exchange in both systems.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

The biggest hurdle for an HOA in obtaining a loan is that they do not own the real property to put it up as collateral, and therefore they have to apply for an unsecured loan. The individual members own the real property. Your HOA was fortunate to both find a bank willing to provide an unsecured loan and have the solid records to satisfy them on creditworthiness. Also in 2007 lending standards were more relaxed than today.

The only OBX example I am aware of is one HOA getting preliminary approval for an SBA loan after a hurricane destroyed one of their units in order to buy a house across the street from the resort as a replacement unit. The town would not allow construction of a replacement unit anywhere on the resort's property so the insurance was insufficient when it meant also buying more land as well as a structure. The unit owners voted, however, just to accept their share of insurance as the unit lost was oceanfront and the replacement would be across the street from the ocean.

Interesting question. The answer is that an independent resort, not depending on overpriced retail sales, can and has obtained massive loans (for a resort with a $7.2 Million annual budget a $3.5 Million loan is BIG!) back when the common belief was "timeshare associations cannot get bank loans" in 2007. Our resort was able to produce audited figures that were accepted to obtain the loan for 5 years with an option to renew for 5 more. At the 3 year mark the bank was willing to renegotiate the loan, based on past performance and future outlook, for a lower interest rate and a fixed term for a total of 10 years from the original loan date.

Developers / developer managed resorts cannot get loans because costs are too high and the dependency on new sales too risky. A well run owner controlled resort can as they have no overhead and every dollar goes where it belongs - into the operation and maintenance of the resort. Remember an Association has no assets - the buildings, property belong to the owners. The only revenue stream is future fees. Show strength in collections and stability of fees / ownership and banks will make loans. We know because we did it. Now they come to us asking if we need more! Great place to be.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Interesting question. The answer is that an independent resort, not depending on overpriced retail sales, can and has obtained massive loans (for a resort with a $7.2 Million annual budget a $3.5 Million loan is BIG!) back when the common belief was "timeshare associations cannot get bank loans" in 2007. Our resort was able to produce audited figures that were accepted to obtain the loan for 5 years with an option to renew for 5 more. At the 3 year mark the bank was willing to renegotiate the loan, based on past performance and future outlook, for a lower interest rate and a fixed term for a total of 10 years from the original loan date.

Developers / developer managed resorts cannot get loans because costs are too high and the dependency on new sales too risky. A well run owner controlled resort can as they have no overhead and every dollar goes where it belongs - into the operation and maintenance of the resort. Remember an Association has no assets - the buildings, property belong to the owners. The only revenue stream is future fees. Show strength in collections and stability of fees / ownership and banks will make loans. We know because we did it. Now they come to us asking if we need more! Great place to be.

Yes, I am familiar with resorts that are actually worth the sum of the market value of all the weeks.

DVC not
Marriott not

[ace2000 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ace2000]

Ya wanna start a club or something?

Hey, can we change the title to... "This Thread... Has It Run It's Course?"???

LOL - I'm sure there are some that could come up with a good name for that club you mention, using a few choice words.

I've appreciated the discussion, and I'm always open to hear the other side. I use RCI (only) for my exchanges and really don't have an axe to grind. I may not like some of the recent changes, but that's life. I'm sure not going to get emotional about it.

I think if you look at most of my posts, the theme of what I've been saying is that RCI is a business driven by the desire to make it's shareholder's money. Is 'greed' the right word? I don't know, but that one word sure did incite some emotion around here!

And as long as RCI is trying to make it's shareholders happy, and as long as a decison that RCI makes is making money for their shareholders... you're not going to see anything changed - I'll make a big wager on that one. And some of these recent changes and price increases have produced a lot of earnings for Wyndham/RCI!

The only way anyone here is going to bring about change to RCI is to impact their earnings in some manner. One of the most effective messages to Wyndham and RCI are the number of people 'walking away from their timeshares'. Again that advice is not recommended, mostly because of the credit hit they'll face. But, it's happening.

Most people, including myself, are still willing to pay the RCI exchange fee and use them for their wide number of resorts and opportunities available. I don't like my other choices.

The resorts are in a downward spiral over the past few years... will it continue on the trend downwards? If you believe the answer is 'yes', then yes Timesharing has got to be in serious trouble.

I feel this downward trend can be measured and watched by the prices on the resale market for ownership and also by the increasing gap between what a unit can be rented for vs. the maint fees/assessments at the average resorts. The high demand resorts are going to be fine. It's the average and lower quality resorts that are in short term danger. However, with MFs increasing higher than the rate of inflation and rents going down, what do you think that is going to mean?

Just my random thoughts... for discussion purposes only.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I think one way to change RCI's bad habits is for HOA's to get together and call RCI out on them, and to threaten a mass exodus to II if RCI doesn't get with the program. Does such an organization of resorts exist presently? Not really. There is a pretty good nucleus in Europe with TATOC, but they will need to grow a pair if they are going to tangle with RCI. More interestingly, Timesharing Today is helping organize an association of HOA's based in the US. That is the same publication that went in with both guns blazing and tried to stop the ''settlement'' / sellout in the RCI class action. If Timesharing Today has any influence with this new organization once it gets going, then they will already have a good sized pair!

There are two other avenues to force change:
1) a consumer protection lawsuit by a state attorney general, and
2) amendment by state legislatures of existing the disclosure legislation applying to timeshare exchange companies to add detailed disclosure of their rentals. This is turn would virtually shut down developer sales and lead developers to crank down on RCI to halt the rental program.

RCI is an 800 pound gorilla, so it is going to take a 1,000 pound gorilla to beat some sense into it. An extensive organizatiion of HOA's, a determined state AG, or an activist legislature would each qualify.

[BobbyO1967 Member Find all posts View Profile Close BobbyO1967]

Simple question

Carolinian,

what are you calling "prime inventory"?? Just because it's red doesn't make it prime. The real good stuff doesn't get rented. The proof of this pudding will be revealed when you see what's in Club Access.

[BobbyO1967 Member Find all posts View Profile Close BobbyO1967]

One other note

"Mass exoduc from RCI to II"

I've read out of this world deusional statements in the past but that one is just genius. What you will see within 3 years is an II point system. They already primed that road with their "short" program.

Yes, there are some increibly well done resorts in II that RCI does not have. However, II doesn't have enough cars in the car pool to solve problems and/or keep everybody happy.

I'm happy to see you believe these actions you promote are going to happen in some vacuum.

[10AC-TYM Member Find all posts View Profile Close 10AC-TYM]

Carolinian,

what are you calling "prime inventory"?? Just because it's red doesn't make it prime. The real good stuff doesn't get rented. The proof of this pudding will be revealed when you see what's in Club Access.

What is Club Access?

[rdcigc Member Find all posts View Profile Close rdcigc]

If the other exchange companies would just start offering/changing some of the things everyone dislikes about RCI then maybe change start could taking place.

[JWC Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close JWC]

If the other exchange companies would just start offering/changing some of the things everyone dislikes about RCI then maybe change start could taking place.

Some of them do.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Carolinian,

what are you calling "prime inventory"?? Just because it's red doesn't make it prime. The real good stuff doesn't get rented. The proof of this pudding will be revealed when you see what's in Club Access.

Horsehockey! RCI employees Bootleg and Anon, who had access to RCI's computers said just the opposite, and both had well established bonafides in the online timeshare community.

Furthermore, as an HOA president, I could see what RCI was renting at my oceanfront OBX resort, and it was primarily the summer weeks, with a few spring and fall.

And what is Club Access? Another way for RCI to squeeze yet more money out of members?

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

"Mass exoduc from RCI to II"

I've read out of this world deusional statements in the past but that one is just genius. What you will see within 3 years is an II point system. They already primed that road with their "short" program.

Yes, there are some increibly well done resorts in II that RCI does not have. However, II doesn't have enough cars in the car pool to solve problems and/or keep everybody happy.

I'm happy to see you believe these actions you promote are going to happen in some vacuum.

Well, no, I pointed out that it will take HOA's organizing and cranking down hard on RCI. That is something RCI richly deserves the way it is screwed the HOA's.