Some Just Don't Get it . . .

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Or can't see it, or don't wanna get, or don't wanna see it . . . but people who don't own timeshares don't seem to have any problem getting it or seeing it.

We have extended fam with youngins wanting to go to Orlando. At one time that woulda been the que for us (and others like us) to step up and provide a wonderful resort at a great price (sending them as our guests).

Nowadays our offer was countered with, "But we can rent from Westgate for $59/night."

It doesn't have to be Westgate; it just was in this case.

It could be any number of providers who have broken the original Members Only covenant to bolster their bottom line, or the hundreds of owners who have had that covenant broken and are now just trying to recoup what they can, if they can, now being in competition with the same people who took their money and made the covenant to begin with.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

While Carolinian and I often don't agree on things one we are in sync on is the incredible damage RCI/II's use of owner paid deposits to have annual fee busting rentals at well below the real cost (easy to do when you are PAID to take it!) has caused to resorts, owners & the overall freefall of rental rates and resale values.

The "exclusivity" of having to be an owner to qualify for these deals and the change in operations that removed the best times from exchange basis to rental basis combined with the ease of access the Internet has basically ruined any underlying incentive to own rather than rent for all but the most desired resorts/locations. It's really corporate greed at it's worst.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Another group that does not get it, see it, or does not want to admit that they get it or see it, are the regulators and agencies who could do something about it, such as the Florida, and other, AGs.

They choose to blame the industry's ills (cited above) on scam companies who have nothing to do with the industry's ills, but are merely scavenging them, as if the vulture is responsible for the roadkill being there.

Hell would have to freeze over before any agency in Florida would blame timeshare's woes on Central Florida Investments or similar Florida-based companies.

[bravesfan Member Find all posts View Profile Close bravesfan]

Me thinks that the sales groups have actually moved their mini vacs and private offers out to the EMAIL machines or what some call the internet!

You can find all kinds of special offers direct from the developer at far below maintenance etc. I guess they have always done that it just used to be through call centers and post cards.

I doubt that $59 westgate is a nightly rate on a weeklly rental in a two bedroom condo.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

There was a thread on a European board about DRI offering week long rentals to the general public in its European resorts substantially under m/f. This was about the same time that DRI admitted it had a chronic inventory shortage in its UK resorts for the number of its own members who wanted to use a week there. DRI European Collection members were upset at breaching the exclusivity concept in opening these rentals on the internet ot the general public, in cutting members out of being able to reserve those weeks that were rented, and of charging the public less than members were charged.

The major entity that has destroyed the exclusivity principle, one of the key foundation stones of the ownership / exchange model of timesharing, is, of course RCI and its rental to the public programs.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Even the uninitiated, uninformed, uneducated in the topic, and inexperienced can do as well as timeshare owners, and still have money in their pockets.

What those who don't seem to get it don't seem to get is that every owner, developer or resort that puts inventory on the Internet is a further weakening of the system, a lessening of the value and worth of what they own. How much weakening it can stand is yet to be seen.

Another thing those who don't get it don't seem to get is that we are all in this together. It is not some sort of competition between those who are finished with their timeshares and just wanna get out and those who are still in the honeymoon phase. Each weakening is a weakening for all.

20 years ago, ten years ago, Internet timeshare forums did not discuss topics like this.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Resorts tend not to be the issue in the deeply discounted rate wars. Most I know of tend to offer both their own delinquent/Association time at rates that are at or exceed the annual fee as they need that money to make up for unpaid fees.

The problem(s) are the exchange companies, who unabashedly offer rates far below fees and/or times for rent that they don't offer to exchange requests as well as Developers (and some owners) who look to get anything in return for the fees paid rather than take a 100% loss or who use the time as teaser rates to get warm bodies in the door and sell them dramatically overpriced ownerships that could be had for pennies on resale. The Wastegate offer is most likely one of those as they have both tons of unsold inventory as well as carefully crafted offers that appear to be for the 2-3+ bedroom units at ridiculously low cost per night but in fact are for a motel room they also control or get for pennies that make the 2-3+ bedroom units they hawk look even better.

It's all a game but those that see $59/night THINK they can get a great deal whenever they want (likely not true) and are disillusioned when as "valued owners" their fees are higher then those teaser rates. Plus they see actual offers for selected times - sometimes those they can't reserve or trade for - from owners desperate for at least some income when they can't use/trade it for the value so they are in the "get something out rather than loose it all" group.

When the average owner/rental/exchange guest goes to GET the exact place & time they want they are very likely to find it ISN'T cheaper than the fees. But if they can travel without school calendar restrictions or like at least slightly off season times they can & do find great values in last minute or deeply discounted stays at some really great places. Tough to tell those users they need to pay big to buy & own any timeshare once they discover those deals.

It seems to be evolving to a core group that owns where they like & what they like - usually in the more high demand times. For the rest - the vast majority by far in most locations - any type of ownership/commitment to even slightly off season times or lesser resorts makes zero sense. So it is those non-prime ownerships, wherever they may be, that are flooding the market both in resales & rentals.

How we undo that Genie is anyone's guess but somehow those times need to be competitive to own. That is the real challenge - the low to no resale value & rental fees are just reflecting the poor demand for those all too available times. Having the exchange companies take them from paying owners and then deeply discounting them gets a body into the units but undermines the very system that created them. It worked - sort of - when the exclusivity of ownership got you the deals but is killing the golden goose as those deals are offered to anyone at anytime.

What is incredible is that the Developers can take that low cost time & convince poor suckers to buy at $20-40 thousand or more as well as be on the hook for fees they regret a matter of days after the rescind period runs out. THOSE are the people we somehow need to reach and, unfortunately, when we do it's usually after they made a terribly expensive mistake. And they add more fuel to the "want out - I can get rentals cheaper" fire.

That is not the Associations or the management - that is the (very) greedy Developers who walk away & let the Associations / Resorts take the heat for the mess they created.

[Will Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Will]

"How we undo that Genie is anyone's guess but somehow those times need to be competitive to own. That is the real challenge - the low to no resale value & rental fees are just reflecting the poor demand for those all too available times."


That is a pretty big "somehow." As I try to analyze this, I find little comfort in statements that begin with "somehow," "if," or "we must find a way." I am not sure that there is a way, really, given current market dynamics. I think it is better to accept that some degree of market contraction is inevitable and to plan for it, since a slow labored contraction prolonged by guilt trips and legal penalties is probably the most painful for everyone.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Many ways - resorts need to act!

Will - I'm not saying this would or could work at every resort (simple, one size fits all seldom do especially in timeshares) but here are some answers to your fears that have actually worked at various resorts.

First is be realistic how big the problem is. If the resort has 10-12% delinquency and has outstanding requests for deed backs it's a different dynamic than one that has 20% or more pending.

Second is go to your existing owners and ask them to be proactive in getting their family & friends interested in what they have probably used & enjoyed for years. It can be surprisingly effective in finding new, excited owners.

Third look at your resort amenities. If it's in a seasonal area - as most, especially those with this problem are - look into unexpected and year round amenities that can be added or upgraded. Make your resort a destination that offers value to owners & guests at all times not just in season. These may also be potential revenue generators if done professionally and locals want to use those year round features.

Fourth find ways to monetize Association owned or delinquent times. This can be a resale program or rentals - both common and with limited effectiveness. Look to newer programs such as a points based system to increase use/trade of the non-prime times. These can be offered reasonably with an eye to collecting fees and not necessarily making big money sales to buy into the system.

Fifth look to more innovative ways to market available times. An RTU lease of 3-5 years, with or without an option to purchase can be a successful way to market time especially for those worried about taking on unknown costs "forever". An aggressively priced RTU that ends after 3-5 years can be very attractive. These arrangements can be very attractive and can allow the fees charged to be flexible & closer to the value received compared to a fixed amount for every week regardless of demand.

Sixth. Maybe combine with another resort in the area - move ownerships to one strong resort rather than two struggling ones. Close & sell the one that is leftover.

Those are just some & resorts have to pick & chose as well as come up with ideas that should work in their case. Thats why it's "somehow" rather than "do this".

It can and has been done. The Associations and Boards have to think outside the old ways & account for discounted rentals, resales, etc as they come up with their plans.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I would agree that it is the exchange companies who are the biggest culprits, followed by some developers. It is almost never the member-run HOA's.

As long as exchange companies flood the market with cheap timeshare rentals, it will drive down rental prices for individual timeshare owners, resale prices, and the desire to continue owning timeshare.

At the Timeshare Stripped Bare conference last year, a major European timeshare developer stated that RCI's rental to the public programs were undermining not only their developer sales but also their owner retention. More developers need to pick up on this and jerk RCI's chain very very hard on the subject. The big exchange companies rarely listen to individual members but they do listen to developers, whom they consider their primary clients. It seems to me the only way to stop RCI's malpractices in this area is for a group of developers to band together and throw down the gauntlet to RCI to either bring this practice to a screeching halt or they will all bolt to II and thoroughly denounce RCI to their members when they do so.

[Presley Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Presley]

Or can't see it, or don't wanna get, or don't wanna see it . . . but people who don't own timeshares don't seem to have any problem getting it or seeing it.

We have extended fam with youngins wanting to go to Orlando. At one time that woulda been the que for us (and others like us) to step up and provide a wonderful resort at a great price (sending them as our guests).

Nowadays our offer was countered with, "But we can rent from Westgate for $59/night."

It doesn't have to be Westgate; it just was in this case.

It could be any number of providers who have broken the original Members Only covenant to bolster their bottom line, or the hundreds of owners who have had that covenant broken and are now just trying to recoup what they can, if they can, now being in competition with the same people who took their money and made the covenant to begin with.

I don't get it.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I don't get it.

I don't see it.

Actually, literally, I don't see anywhere near our annual fees when we try to rent our weeks.



Part of it, hereabouts, is that so much of the tourist public is so fed-up with timeshares, starting with the scammy info booths used to suck prospects in (like we were 20-plus years ago), that they will not go near a luxury timeshare resort for what it costs to stay at Motel 6.

They are tired of being approached when they shop, when they dine out, wherever they are trying to enjoy their vacations.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I think you are dealing with more of a flooded market, thanks to RCI's massive rentals to the general public. Of course, any factor as you mention that reduces the size of the market contributes to the flooding.

Fortunately, we have not seen that problem with OBX summer timeshare weeks. They still rent like a charm with a nice profit. And I am sure that there are some other areas and times that do as well.

I don't see it.

Actually, literally, I don't see anywhere near our annual fees when we try to rent our weeks.



Part of it, hereabouts, is that so much of the tourist public is so fed-up with timeshares, starting with the scammy info booths used to suck prospects in (like we were 20-plus years ago), that they will not go near a luxury timeshare resort for what it costs to stay at Motel 6.

They are tired of being approached when they shop, when they dine out, wherever they are trying to enjoy their vacations.

[bravesfan Member Find all posts View Profile Close bravesfan]

I don't see it.

Actually, literally, I don't see anywhere near our annual fees when we try to rent our weeks.



Part of it, hereabouts, is that so much of the tourist public is so fed-up with timeshares, starting with the scammy info booths used to suck prospects in (like we were 20-plus years ago), that they will not go near a luxury timeshare resort for what it costs to stay at Motel 6.

They are tired of being approached when they shop, when they dine out, wherever they are trying to enjoy their vacations.

Maybe the public never liked places like slimey trough and mudwump to begin with and that is why you can't rent them.

[bravesfan Member Find all posts View Profile Close bravesfan]

I think you are dealing with more of a flooded market, thanks to RCI's massive rentals to the general public. Of course, any factor as you mention that reduces the size of the market contributes to the flooding.

Fortunately, we have not seen that problem with OBX summer timeshare weeks. They still rent like a charm with a nice profit. And I am sure that there are some other areas and times that do as well.

obx is an established market with great drive to demand and loyal repeat traverllers.