Some Just Don't Get it . . .

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Trying to make it unique when its neither new or different doesn't work. How is the "exit strategy" any different for the abandoned & unmarketable property and the loan and/or taxes due any different than an unwanted timeshare? Strawman.

So, walkaway, as the owners of property on your list have by millions?

That would be good for the industry.

You can say you are not involved because you are not the industry that create the problem. But, you are involved. You know that.

But, we continue to digress.

When I started "Some Just Don't Get It," you were not on my mind, nowhere near on my mind. I know how you look at things and you know how I look at things, so I have no need of poking you with a stick.

What was is those who don't see what's going on, or don't acknowledge it, and/or don't see or acknowledge how it is harming them, or going to harm them. So, even though I did not have you mind . . .

[SallyHoover Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SallyHoover]

I own at an independent, well run resort that had an escape clause and managed to close it.

I own a resort at a very seasonable east coast location. All units are 2 bedroom. It was built in the early 80's and had a clause to disband in 2030. High season is June 15-August 30. These units still sell for $1500-$2500 and are fully owned and occupied. Shoulder Season is roughly April15-June 15 and Sept-October. These units sell for the most part and go for $100-$500. They are 90% owned and used for at least part of the week. November-April are used less than 20% of the time and the HOA owns about 40% of the weeks. These units have no resale value. The reason that more owners haven't defaulted is that MF's have been kept to under $400 even though the MF's and defaults have been creeping up.

Recently the HOA decided this year (18 years in advance) they would deal with the end date issue. Sure the prime season owners are still happy. The shoulder season owners are still reasonably happy but where is the forethought. In 2030 the resort will be 50 years old and will be needing some major repairs. MF's will rise and the original owners of the off season weeks will be moving on to the great TS in the sky and no one is going to take those weeks. I couldn't go to the meeting but I did send in my -"No, Goodness NO, for the love of all things good, Please NO" do not amend the original documents to take out the termination date.

Since we were so early in this vote, I wish we could have spent one year discussing the issues-pro's and con's and then summarized them and sent them out to the owners who can't come to meetings for next year to actually vote. The note I received made it seem it was terrible that we had an end date and if we didn't vote to remove it we would lose everything. Between the HOA votes for all the off season weeks and the prime season votes it passed easily. So the escape clause is gone.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Not THAT (removing the end clause for 2030) seems like an anti-owner move of self preservation by that Board/resort. VERY shortsighted thinking IMO.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

This thread has addressed the issues and we now are creating vibrant markets for:

• Abandoned City Properties throughout the US
• Rural Properties that have been for sale for over 3 decades
• Any timeshare owner that now has an ownership they don't want
• Every condo owner that purchased during the bubble and is now seriously underwater and unable to sell
• Each owner of a Oldsmobile or other brand that since they were discontinued has no dealer network to resell to
• Every delinquent taxpayer being hounded for payments on old income or property they can't afford
• Any other mistaken financial move made by the uninformed/misinformed

The list will grow so I wonder exactly where all these markets will be and who will fund them but I guess that will be the usual debt markets used by the Government and others - some of whom are on the list already.

Where is the compassion? Those blighted city property owners are in real trouble! And Oldsmobiles are virtually impossible to sell now! Have some pity on these buyers!

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

All of this . . . excuse-making, finger-pointing, responsibility-denying, buck-passing . . . will resolve nothing.

Every problem is resolved when someone who can decides to resolve it.

As Rome burned . . .

[JudyS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close JudyS]

Thanks, Timeos2 and Carolinian for the information on the two Cape Cod resorts that merged. (Anyone know their names, by the way?) I understand why the resort that voted to close required a supermajority, but why did the other resort (the ones that stayed open) require a vote by owners at all? In other words, suppose Resort A is in trouble, but has 200 owners who still want to own. Resort B is more stable but has 200 HOA-owned weeks. Why can't the HOA of Resort B just sell (or give) the 200 HOA-owned weeks to owners from resort A? Why would there need to be a vote at Resort B?

...
Saying timeshare is unique is a straw man argument. It's just not true. There are just more of them viewed as a problem. If every unwanted timeshare was instead an old factory or lot in Detroit the exact same issue would exist. It's deeded property nobody wants and there is no market. So we should be handling that too? Yes it's an issue. No it's not unique or special.

I don't think HOAs should be forced to take deedbacks, except maybe in situations where most owners want the timeshare disbanded. However, I do think there are special circumstances that apply mostly, or solely, to timeshares, and these special circumstances make trying to get rid of a timeshare worse than trying to get rid of most other types of property.

If I own a rundown building in Detroit, true, I might be stuck with it. But, actually most buildings in Detroit that have been maintained have at least a little value and can be sold. (The problem houses are mostly ones that have fallen to ruin because the owner has died/gone to prison/declared bankruptcy and given up that. These falling-down buildings are often on the same block as homes that are still in use.)

In the case of timeshares, even if the underlying real estate has value and most owners want out, it may be impossible to dissolve the timeshare because the applicable law requires a supermajority, or perhaps unanimous consent. In a resorts with thousands of owners, there will never be unanimous consent because at any given time some of the owners can not be located, are incapacitated with dementia, or have recently died and their estate has not been settled.

Now, there may be full-ownership condos that all require supermajorities or unanimous consent to disband, but generally you are dealing with 100 owners or less. In a timeshare, 100 condos means getting a supermajority or unanimous consent from 5,000 owners. Plus, in a full-ownership condo association, owners who want to disband could walk door-to-door and talk to their neighbors. With a timeshare, often many of the owners can not be located.

And, there is often the problem of a management company that wants to collect a special assessment rather than disband. If my home was in bad repair, I could decide for myself whether to fix it, sell it, or tear it down. In timeshares, you get situations like the Point at Poipu, where the management company decides they want $300,000 per condo for repairs. What do most owners there want to do -- pay the SA, sell the underlying property, give up and walk away? No one knows, because the management company won't even let owners contact each other.

I think we (timeshare owners) need better mechanisms for contacting other owners at our resorts (in particular, I think management companies should be required to provide a list of email addresses so owners can contact each other.) If a most numbers of owners want out, the timeshare should try disbanding. But to do that, there may need to be changes in the laws governing timeshare covenants. Timesharing Today ran an article in the past year about a condo in Florida that was destroyed (by a hurricane, I think.) The owners wanted to sell the underlying property, but existing law required unanimous consent to a sales deal, which was impossible to get because there was never a times when all owners were alive, mentally competent, and at a known address. The law was changed to allow the HOA to sell the property on behalf of the owners. Since it was possible to change this particular law was changed, perhaps some of the other laws making it hard to dissolve timeshares can be changed, too.

I think there needs to be a change of attitude among HOAs. Yes, in most circumstances an HOA has the responsibility to keep a timeshare open and in good repair. However, if most owners find the timeshare to be a millstone around their necks, then the responsibility of the HOA should be to find a way to close (and receive some value for the underlying real estate, if possible.)

[JudyS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close JudyS]

Not THAT (removing the end clause for 2030) seems like an anti-owner move of self preservation by that Board/resort. VERY shortsighted thinking IMO.

Which shows that sometimes, yes, an HOA Board can be the problem.

[JudyS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close JudyS]

Seems to me that both of those are choosing not to use their time. Not sure why there needs to be a definition. People can certainly use the time that they bought or make an exchange for literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of locations. Just because one area is not available does not mean they can't be used.

A lot of people currently don't have enough money to travel. And, there is a real problem for owners who are no longer healthy enough to travel. (With the baby boomers aging, this is starting to be a lot of owners.)....

You might find that those who don't get it, don't care either.

I wasn't so much trying to complain about my own situation as I was trying to explain to Bravesfan why some owners don't use their timeshares. As owners age, there are an increasing number of owners who can't travel. Plus, the economy has made it too expensive for many people to travel.

Come to think of it, the economy has made it hard for many people to take vacations even if they can afford them. Some workers are afraid that using their vacation times will put them "first in line" when pink slips are handed out. There have been some surveys that show many employees are afraid to use their vacation time.

[JudyS Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close JudyS]

I think we have a lot of bright people here, and we can do better than just go back-and-forth on the topic of whether resorts should take deedbacks. How about some brainstorming?

For example, I offer some nice resorts for rental at good prices, but I find it very, very hard to locate renters. I'll bet that is partly because many people are afraid to rent from someone they don't know. A few times I've tried putting my weeks in my resorts' rental pools, but that has never worked. The management companies just don't care about finding a renter as much as I do. (After all, I have to pay them even if the room sits empty.)

What it owners got together and started a company that rents out timeshares? This would almost certainly increase renter's confidence in the rentals, plus owners could pool their resources to get advertising. I don't feel I have enough time to run such a venture, but I'd be willing to contribute financially to it. Any one like the idea?

And other new ideas?

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I think we have a lot of bright people here, and we can do better than just go back-and-forth on the topic of whether resorts should take deedbacks. How about some brainstorming?

For example, I offer some nice resorts for rental at good prices, but I find it very, very hard to locate renters. I'll bet that is partly because many people are afraid to rent from someone they don't know. A few times I've tried putting my weeks in my resorts' rental pools, but that has never worked. The management companies just don't care about finding a renter as much as I do. (After all, I have to pay them even if the room sits empty.)

What it owners got together and started a company that rents out timeshares? This would almost certainly increase renter's confidence in the rentals, plus owners could pool their resources to get advertising. I don't feel I have enough time to run such a venture, but I'd be willing to contribute financially to it. Any one like the idea?

And other new ideas?

Agreed.

"Every problem is resolved when someone who can decides to resolve it."

There are already prominent people on this forum doing what you suggest.

&, thanks for putting in words much the same thing as I, and others, have treid to put in words.

Things are things we never talked about 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Agreed.

"Every problem is resolved when someone who can decides to resolve it."

There are already prominent people on this forum doing what you suggest.

&, thanks for putting in words much the same thing as I, and others, have treid to put in words.

Things are things we never talked about 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

And I guess that's really my problem with the whole process. We have at least a handful of resorts/Associations/Boards that are doing the positive steps needed to fix the issue. But it appears they are being basically ignored in the shouting of the "resorts must take deed backs" groups that don't help anything as it addresses only one half of the problem. Sure, Associations can take back all weeks that want but then the other owners have to pay making a big part of the original problem - high fees - bigger and offering zero answers as to what / how those weeks get made performing again.

We need to come out in support of the innovative resorts that are trying ways to monetize non-performing weeks, that are helping owners sell or even allow deed backs as they have a way to make them useful. Simply trying to force resorts to accept back weeks they cannot afford to hold isn't helping it could e seriously hurting resorts that may already be struggling with this serious issue.

Accent the positive!

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

My position is for the legitimate industry to step up and do what is right, finally, to make up for all the years of their shortcomings, and for the regulators and prosecutors to quit placing all the blame on those who are taking advantage of the shortcomings of the legitimate industry.

In the mean time, if groups that are not responsible for the shortcomings of the legitimate industry step forward and do what is right, that would be fine, too.

[John Cassidy Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Cassidy]

The two resorts on Cape Cod that merged are Club at Cape Cod in Dennis Port and Riverview Resort South Yarmouth. I owned two weeks at the Club at Cape Cod. I think we needed about an 80% vote to terminate the timeshare. Both resorts had many weeks leased and owned respectively by two Vacation Clubs that were going to terminate their use. We loved the Club even though it desperately needed remodeling and had structural problems. It was in a quiet residential neighborhood not far from a nice beach. But maintenance fees were predicted to increase drastically and a special assessment would be needed. We already had spent $600,000 to replace the pool building.

Riverview had already had a special assessment to modernize the resort and was in wonderful condition. On top of that, unlike the Club, it was originally very well built (all concrete/rebar even in the walls between units). Both resorts were former motels. Riverview is in a more commercial area and farther from the beach, but on a pretty river.

VRI managed both resorts and I guess they performed a miracle in combining our resorts (they also loaned money for legal fees etc. and guaranteed an existing loan, necessary because Vacation Internationale is gone).

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Do you know Butch and Hopalong?



Sean?

David?

[John Cassidy Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close John Cassidy]

No, I just know them from movies and TV. I saw "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance" Kid a few times.