relationship between TS owners and Sunterra

[alleng Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close alleng]

I own 2 weeks in a Sunterra resort. What is the relationship between us (the owners of weeks) and them (Sunterra). I have some concerns and I am not sure if the HOA is the right place to take it or I am just going to be talking to someone from Sunterra?

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

I own 2 weeks in a Sunterra resort. What is the relationship between us (the owners of weeks) and them (Sunterra). I have some concerns and I am not sure if the HOA is the right place to take it or I am just going to be talking to someone from Sunterra?

More info is needed as every resort situation is unique, where do you own, someone here may be familiar with your resort?

Some resorts are entirely controlled by Sunterra while still in development. Some are controlled by Sunterra but do have 'outside' members on the BOD. Some Sunterra controlled resorts may have Advisory Boards you can talk to.

[Arline Member Find all posts View Profile Close Arline]

Negative experience with Sunterra

While vacationing in Arizona, a few years ago, we agreed to attend a Sunterra presentation. The sales rep convinced us that if we purchased Sun Option Points, we could deposit our standard Mount Amanzi timeshares in South Africa for points. We thought this was a better alternative than relying on RCI, since trade power had dwindled. All of our timeshares are deeded, so we thought it might be time to diversify. We own gold crown resorts in Hawaii (Kona Coast and Maui Schooner) as well as Pono Kai, which we use every year. After we agreed to the terms, we went back to our resort to read over the fine print. Turns out, Sunterra is very selective on the resorts they accept to deposit for points. It was quiet clear that our standard MA units would not qualify and we had no intention of giving up our resorts in Hawaii. We immediately followed the procedures to rescind and took our letter to the post office within 24 hours of the Suntera purchase. The following day, we went back to the sales office to return the owner's package. We also presented them with a copy of our letter. Several reps and managers tried to convince us to sign a waiver. We were amazed at how aggressive they were, but we did not cave. I can understand how non-timeshare owners with no prior knowledge fall prey to these sharks every day. They will say anything to make a sale! Since that time, we have stayed at Sunterra resorts, but we would never consider purchasing anything from this deceptive company. We have also sold our 4 Mount Amanzi properties.

[Steve Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Steve]

Hi Spence,

Do you know what the situation is at Villas de Santa Fe? I love Santa Fe, have stayed at this resort, and have considered purchasing a deeded, floating week (resale). However, I have held back largely because I am not sure I want to get involved with a company like Sunterra. Does this resort have an HOA? I had a long talk with a very nice lady at the resort a while back...but I wasn't convinced that buying was worth the risk. Any info. would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Steve

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

While vacationing in Arizona, a few years ago, we agreed to attend a Sunterra presentation. The sales rep convinced us that if we purchased Sun Option Points, we could deposit our standard Mount Amanzi timeshares in South Africa for points. We thought this was a better alternative than relying on RCI, since trade power had dwindled. All of our timeshares are deeded, so we thought it might be time to diversify. We own gold crown resorts in Hawaii (Kona Coast and Maui Schooner) as well as Pono Kai, which we use every year. After we agreed to the terms, we went back to our resort to read over the fine print. Turns out, Sunterra is very selective on the resorts they accept to deposit for points. It was quiet clear that our standard MA units would not qualify and we had no intention of giving up our resorts in Hawaii. We immediately followed the procedures to rescind and took our letter to the post office within 24 hours of the Suntera purchase. The following day, we went back to the sales office to return the owner's package. We also presented them with a copy of our letter. Several reps and managers tried to convince us to sign a waiver. We were amazed at how aggressive they were, but we did not cave. I can understand how non-timeshare owners with no prior knowledge fall prey to these sharks every day. They will say anything to make a sale! Since that time, we have stayed at Sunterra resorts, but we would never consider purchasing anything from this deceptive company. We have also sold our 4 Mount Amanzi properties.

First, let me say that these deceptive sales techniques are not the exclusive domain of Sunterra. Every TS presentation I've ever been too has been similar, even the low key Marriott tell half truths with a lot of sugar coating.

Sunterra as a resort group does not have the global reach and global demand of members that RCI does. They can and should be very selective in what they accept in Club Select as they give out points and need to be able, with resonable certainty, to take in points for the property you give up. If I were them, I would not accept your MtA. I've quit using RCI and have sold all my SAs. All this does not condone their deceptive indication that they would take your MtA. It has also been reported that they have given lower points for a Club Select deposit than promised at the sales presentation. It matched what their grids would predict, but when buying you don't know enough to look at the grids.

I'm glad you were able to extricate yourself. Sunterra has a good product, it's too bad there are so many predatory salespeople and sales managers out there.

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

Hi Spence,
Do you know what the situation is at Villas de Santa Fe? I love Santa Fe, have stayed at this resort, and have considered purchasing a deeded, floating week (resale). However, I have held back largely because I am not sure I want to get involved with a company like Sunterra. Does this resort have an HOA? I had a long talk with a very nice lady at the resort a while back...but I wasn't convinced that buying was worth the risk. Any info. would be appreciated. Thanks, Steve

I can't predict what the future holds for Sunterra as a company or a mini exchange group. I myself am an new owner at VdeSF, it was a deal for a large points UDI that was just too good to pass up. But compared to what I own at a couple other resorts, it's peanuts. So, no, I don't know any particulars at VdeSF yet. I stayed there this past October and there was no sales presence there, I was amazed. Could be that they are sold out there, in which case there should be an HOA. Part of the 'problem' I see there is that there are two 'owners' that would control the picture... the TRUST and Vacation Internationale (former Sunterra Pacific) they both control a significant amount of units that could be voted as an unbeatable block, although the relationship between Sunterra and VI is not friendly... VI kicked Sunterra out as management for their program.

[alleng Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close alleng]

Here is more info about my Sunterra concerns. I own two float weeks at their property on Kauai that was formerly part of Embassy Suites. I have tried to book a week several times and have been told that they are sold out. I asked the ressi folks how far out they let non-owners book units. They told me that it was owners only until it was within 30 days of the check in date.
I was surprised that it was fully booked so often more than 30 days out if only owners were using the property. I called the resort anonymously and asked them if they booked by the night and whether they were able to make ressis for 2 months from now and was told yes. My question is whether Sunterra is renting rooms to nonowners thereby keeping owners from being able to have access to the property. My second question is whether I have any recourse through the TS owners Association or whether Sunterra controls this. My final question is whether the owners can hire another management company to replace Sunterra?

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

Here is more info about my Sunterra concerns. I own two float weeks at their property on Kauai that was formerly part of Embassy Suites. I have tried to book a week several times and have been told that they are sold out. I asked the ressi folks how far out they let non-owners book units. They told me that it was owners only until it was within 30 days of the check in date.
I was surprised that it was fully booked so often more than 30 days out if only owners were using the property. I called the resort anonymously and asked them if they booked by the night and whether they were able to make ressis for 2 months from now and was told yes. My question is whether Sunterra is renting rooms to nonowners thereby keeping owners from being able to have access to the property. My second question is whether I have any recourse through the TS owners Association or whether Sunterra controls this. My final question is whether the owners can hire another management company to replace Sunterra?

I am not an owner at Poipu, T.R.Og is, he might be able to enlighten us. There are several things at play here...

I don't know whether the resort is sold out or not, if not, there may be Sunterra inventory for them to rent out.

There may well be a program there for owners to reserve their time and then give it to the reservations department onsite for rental... Powhatan and Greensprings have this.

Inventory place into Club Sunterra is different from inventory that still is the traditional weeks float. How Sunterra decides what goes into Club inventory when a float owner joins the Club, I don't know.

You need to find out if there is an Owner's Advisory Board you can talk to or any non-Sunterra employees on the Board of Directors.

Some resorts/orhanizations have been able to oust Sunterra management SRM. Cypress Point Phase I and Vacation international as well as three of their former resorts in Sedona.

T.R.Og???

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Depends

I was surprised that it was fully booked so often more than 30 days out if only owners were using the property. I called the resort anonymously and asked them if they booked by the night and whether they were able to make ressis for 2 months from now and was told yes. My question is whether Sunterra is renting rooms to nonowners thereby keeping owners from being able to have access to the property. My second question is whether I have any recourse through the TS owners Association or whether Sunterra controls this. My final question is whether the owners can hire another management company to replace Sunterra?

The biggest part of your question is who runs the resort - Sunterra or the owners? If it's the owners then they set the rules and you, as well as Sunterra, have to live by them. If its still under Sunterra control then they in fact do set the rules and still have to live by them but the question of fox and hen house comes up in that situation.

It sounds like this is a float time resort. If so it is not at all uncommon that the limited number of units/weeks in the highest demand times would fill up quickly. There are plenty of owners and each most likely would really prefer the best time. There simply isn't enough to allow that.

As for who do you contact I'd start with the HOA. No matter who is the majority of the Board (Sunterra or the owners) they still have a duty to the owners. They need to answer your questions and give you the rules that are used for use assignments.

Remember too that if Sunterra still owns weeks and they pay the fees they have every right to use the time as they see fit. They can rent it, give it away or anything else once the time is paid for. They are an owner like anyone else and can reserve use like anyone else. It all comes back to the total number of weeks, the demand and who gets the reservation first. Sunterra may or may not be a part of the situation.

[alleng Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close alleng]

Poipu Point HOA

Thank you Timeos2. I have been trying to find T.R.Og in the member directory with no luck to ask what he/she knows about the HOA at Poipu Point.
Is there a way to find the HOA at any given TS resort?

Thank You
I am SL (still learning)

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

Thank you Timeos2. I have been trying to find T.R.Og in the member directory with no luck to ask what he/she knows about the HOA at Poipu Point.
Is there a way to find the HOA at any given TS resort?

Thank You
I am SL (still learning)

T. R. Oglodyte
Call the given resort.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Re Po`ipu reservations.

There are several factors at play. Before I can advise I need to know whether you are talking about booking directly at the resort as an owner, or whether you are trying to use SunOptions through Club Sunterra.

****
There are several circumstances under which you can be told there is nothing available to you even if the resort is not fully booked. I'll try to cover some of them.

There are four view categories at the resort - Ocean Front, Ocean View, Partial Ocean View, and Garden. If you are an owner, you can only book in the view category corresponding to your ownership. (Note: there are ownerships that can book in any view category - these are commonly called "float-float" units, because they float both as to season and unit type.) The view category is important because if your view category is fully booked, you can't make a reservation even if the resort itself is not fully booked.

If you are booking using SunOptions. the number of Options required depends on the view category available. If you have 10,000 SunOptions available, you can only book Garden View and Partial Ocean View. If those view categories are all booked, you won't be able to make a reservation.

Also Club Sunterra does not have unrestricted access to all inventory at Po`ipu - Club Sunterra can't book more weeks at the resort than correspond with weeks that have been either affiliated with the Sunterra Trust or converted to Trust properties. For example, let's say that there are 1000 ocean front unit ownerships that have been converted to or affiliated with the Club Sunterra trust. After Club Sunterra members reserve 1000 ocean front units, no Club Sunterra member can book another ocean front unit even if the resort itself has available ocean front units. They have to do it that way or owners of unconverted or unaffiliated weeks would be denied their usage rights.

Note that in the Club Sunterra system, once the window passes when Po`ipu owners have exclusive reservation rights, the Club inventory becomes available to all Club members. If Club Sunterra members who own at other resorts claim the remaining inventory, you won't be able to reserve at the resort even though you are an owner. If you want to stay at Poi`pu you will then have to find a date where there is available inventory.

***

They told me that it was owners only until it was within 30 days of the check in date.

I think you misunderstood this. Trust owners can make reservations using SunOptions 13 months before check-in. Trust affiliated owners can reserve units 12 months before check-in. For the first 30-days after that 12-month window opens, reservations can only be made by owners. That is the only type of 30-day owner exclusivity of which I am aware. I am almost 100% certain that non-owners can reserve through Club Sunterra much more than 30 days prior to check-in.

****

During high demand times (Christmas/New Years, Feb-Apr, Jun - Sep, and Thanksgiving) all available units are usually reserved within 30 days after the 365-day reservation window opens. If any high demand season units remain available in Club Sunterra after the 30-day window opens, that inventory is scarfed up by non-Po`ipu owners within a few days. For example, we were trying to reserve space for August of 2007 earlier this year. Due to some paperwork screw-ups within Sunterra, we were having problems reserving a unit at that time. I was checking avaialability as we were trying to work things out, and there was consistent availability. As soon as the 30-say window expired, all of the availability was gone within a day or two.

Also be aware than many owners (such as us) visit at the same time every year, and submit their reservations in person at the Ohana office for the same time next year while they are staying at the resort.

***

There are a lot of other wrinkles in the reservation and inventory control system at Poi`pu. I haven't even mentioned bulk banking of deposits with exchange companies or how Sunterra manages the unsold inventory it owns. But based on your descriptions I don't see where there is anything nefarious going on.

***

My final question is whether the owners can hire another management company to replace Sunterra?

Changing the management company is theoretically possible but in practical terms impossible unless Sunterra elects to walk away from managing the resorts. The procedures contained in the Timeshare Programs documents by which owners can change the management company make it essentially impossible for owners to throw out Sunterra. Then, by creating the Hawai`i Sunterra Trust, Sunterra has made that possibility even more remote. The Trust has or will have, for all practical purposes, controlling votes in the Apartment Owners Association and the Vacation Owners Association. Owners of units that have been converted to the Trust irrevocably cede their voting rights to the trust, and the trust casts its votes a single bloc. It would take a huge event for the Trustee to ever vote against Sunterra on any matter of significance.

[odaddy Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close odaddy]

Thanks for taking the time to post all this info!

[alleng Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close alleng]

Thanks for the info

TR
Thanks for the prompt response.

I understood everything that you wrote except for 1 item. I own float/float weeks.
The following quote puzzles me

"I think you misunderstood this. Trust owners can make reservations using SunOptions 13 months before check-in. Trust affiliated owners can reserve units 12 months before check-in. For the first 30-days after that 12-month window opens, reservations can only be made by owners. That is the only type of 30-day owner exclusivity of which I am aware. I am almost 100% certain that non-owners can reserve through Club Sunterra much more than 30 days prior to check-in"

Does this mean that Trust owners using Sunoptions can book 13 months out while owners can only book 360 days out?

Allen

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

TR
Thanks for the prompt response.

I understood everything that you wrote except for 1 item. I own float/float weeks.
The following quote puzzles me

"I think you misunderstood this. Trust owners can make reservations using SunOptions 13 months before check-in. Trust affiliated owners can reserve units 12 months before check-in. For the first 30-days after that 12-month window opens, reservations can only be made by owners. That is the only type of 30-day owner exclusivity of which I am aware. I am almost 100% certain that non-owners can reserve through Club Sunterra much more than 30 days prior to check-in"

Does this mean that Trust owners using Sunoptions can book 13 months out while owners can only book 360 days out?

Allen

The answer is partly yes. And the explanation lies in the different types of ownership at the resort.

Let's ignore for the moment the following special ownership types, as these are all relatively small portions of the total ownership:

• the 3-bedroom and 1-bedroom units at the resort. I believe all of these are fixed week units.
• A few 2-bedroom units that early in resort sales were sold as fixed week units
• Some 2-bedroom units that early in resort sales were sold with rights to the third floor corner units in Building 6 (directly below the three bedroom units.

All other ownerships at the resort can be divided into three categories:

1. Non Club Sunterra weeks. There are float-float, ocean view, ocean front, partial ocean view, and garden view.
2. Club Sunterra affiliated weeks. These are weeks that were originally sold as non-Club Sunterra inventory, but the owners of those weeks have elected to affiliate the weeks with Club Sunterra. The owners still hold the deed to those weeks, but they have executed paperwork turning over the their usage rights to Sunterra in exchange for receiving an allotment of SunOptions.
3. Club Sunterra trust weeks. These are weeks for which actual ownership of the week is held by the Club Sunterra Hawai`i trust. Weeks in the Club Sunterra come from two sources:
   • Weeks that Sunterra owns as the developer. Almost all new sales at the resort are Club Sunterra trust, with the buyer purchasing a specified number of SunOptions. Sunterra adds developer weeks to the trust as needed to "back" the Trust based SunOptions sold by the sales force.
   • Weeks that were originally sold as non-trust weeks but the original owners have transferred ownership of the weeks to the Club Sunterra Hawai`i Trust.
   
   You should also note that that the Hawai`i trust combines ownerships in both Ka`anapali and Po`ipu, and members who own trust converted properties pay maintenance fees that are a blend of the annual fees for the two resorts.

Now note that there are two types of Club Sunterra ownerships - Club Sunterra trust affiliated and Club Sunterra trust converted.

As I understand Club Sunterra Trust converted points can be used to make reservations 13 months out. Non Club Sunterra and Club Sunterra affiliated can make reservations 12 months in advance.

***

Hope that helps. Sunterra is doing everything they can to make it complicated and to give owners incentives pay bucks to convert to the Trust.