Post Card Companies

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

My experiences with Timeshare Relief, Vacation Solutions, Timeshare Acquisitions...

Everyone knows, I call ‘em as I see ‘em, and will continue to do so.
I got the post card, I called.

OK, so I took the first appointment that they offered today and arrived 30 minutes early, the second or third to arrive. They had a table set up in the lobby. Filled out their Questionnaire, which wanted most of your personal info. People were scattered around the lobby at tables and on couches, etc. A representative then came around and read your questionnaire and asked you for your post card, wrote a big pink ‘G’ on it and gave me my GAS card. That was very upfront. Did they ever take the questionnaire away from me and file it, no.
I made the rounds, talking to couples that were waiting, talking about timeshares in general and outfits that want to pay you for your timeshare and sell you a vacation club. By the time I got to the second couple, they were on me like flies on honey, wanting to know what I was talking about, they’d been told that someone in the business was there to spread misinformation and disparage them. Couldn’t be me! See post #31. Most of the people were older as you would expect for a Friday morning, I expect the younger crowd to come on Sat/Sun.
At the appointed hour they ushered about 20 of us into a small conference room with video testimonials playing up front on the screen. Then Frank, a retired Marine, got up and told his personal story about how he owned timeshare and TR got him out of it, then he went to work for them. He introduced Sam who was the ringleader and a smooth talker, though he claimed to be an engineer by trade, like David MacMillan, one of the owners.
I took notes but I’m not going to bore you with the blah, blah, blah that you would expect them to talk about, besides when I exited I think I left my notes on the table. OK, they talked about your kids being stuck with it, your ever rising MFs, a couple special assessments every 10yrs, your exchange company dues, your exchange fees if you do use it, the repercussions if you don’t pay your MFs, etc, etc. They were all over the Timesharing Today article that’s been discussed at length, a Newsweek article by Jane Bryant Quinn, and some stuff off the Wisconsin Dept of Ag website.
I was most interested in the tax strategy that I was told about on the phone, where all the timeshares go, what the cost and mechanics of the transaction are.
Let me say that this company does not sell a vacation club at this presentation, they do have a link to a vacation club on their website, why, I don’t know.

This is what they do.
Tax strategy. When they started talking about this, I pulled out DaveM’s advice and laid it on my desk. Big red letters Income Taxes and Timeshares
Sam saw this but didn’t miss a beat. He came out upfront saying that this may be an aggressive strategy but was all legal. He filled out the Schedule ‘D’ right there on the screen as an example. It didn’t matter if you’d ever made any money off of it… if you bought it thinking it was an investment, with that intent, then you could claim your $15K loss, or whatever, including developer cost, Timeshare Relief’s fees, any other fees you’d paid to one of those dastardly upfront fee companies, any special assessments you’d paid, all deductible.

TCS is the company they use for closing.

This is their cover story for where the timeshares go. This magical event planner makes his money by booking events for Fortune500 companies and makes money, not on the TS, but on all the catering, event stuff….
When questioned directly about how they take title and how it gets out of my name, Monica said that title is taken by tadaa….. VIN Inc – Vacation Innovations Network Incorporated. Now we all know what VIN Inc does with them, don’t we?
I purposely put down one of my worst timeshares on my Questionnaire, one I’d paid $26 in 2003 from VIN Inc or maybe eMidSouth. I said there's no way an event planner could use this property. When questioned directly, Frank said that the event planner may not use my timeshare directly but turn it into ‘points’ to book a lot in one place. Oh, so the magical event planner has PFD and then breaks RCI’s rules using them for commercial purposes. Frank didn’t know anything about that. But Monica told me that VIN Inc takes title, they sell them on eBay, Frank didn’t know anything about that.
What about these tax strategies, I don’t believe them (While I don’t agree with DaveM about everything, like whether an HOA offering of Red weeks for an admin fee of $50 is ‘free’ or not, I do respect his opinions and agree with his tax advice). Frank said that TR would be glad to have their CPA talk to my CPA.
Let me see, aggressive tax strategies, shady event planners, and one other thing… they insinuated that the developer had some deed where they could go borrow money based on some sort of ownership of the resort and that my deed to real estate wasn’t really real estate because a bank wouldn’t lend me money on it. We all know why a bank wouldn't lend me money on it.
Near the end, Sam didn’t like me talking to the person next to me while waiting for one of their representatives, presentation was over. Six representatives had to cover ~20 people. He again said that he was on the lookout for this company insider, he flipped out this hardcopy Post#31 from Spence and said that this guy was coming to make trouble, see he’s a Founding Member of Sunterra, he started the company. I read the paper diligently and said I didn’t think that was the case. Well, he’s got 1417 posts on the internet, he must work in the industry. OK, have I made any trouble for you, the answer was no.
I’m not happy, obviously with their event planner story, is there an event planner, I bet there is. Tax strategy, yeah. These guys remind everyone about the bad stuff.
Do they turn around and sell them? No, not directly. Are they in bed with VIN Inc, what is their contract with VIN Inc?
What do they charge? If you have one TS, they charge 7x MF or $3495 whichever is lower. If you have more than one TS, lets talk.
I was there for quite a while, waiting and asking questions. I saw many people sign the paperwork and cough up their credit card, even the couple I first talked to in the lobby, what were they getting rid of? December OC, MD and July Barbados. The other couple I talked to left as soon as the presentation was over. The woman I sat next to didn’t have money or a credit card with her, she was negotiating her 182,000 FF points when I left.
I have a copy of all their contracts and paperwork and am glad to share, email me. Would I do business with them? Probably not.
Do they provide a service and is the service they provide legit? I believe it is. BBB rating. Their contract relieves you of your MFs immediately provided that everything was paid to date with nothing outstanding.
Do I agree with their premises, no. They claimed 4000 happy customers since 2002, website says 5000. It's gotta be more than that based on how many people signed this morning and the fact that they have four to five teams out every weekend. Normally four, but the response in the DC/MD area was so big that they had to add a day (Sun) and field another team to cover Charlottesville because of that. This team was Sam, Frank, Monica, and about three others. I asked whether Cindy or David, the owners hit the road anymore, and the answer was no. They must not be the only outfit that has a contract with VIN Inc. based on the number of eBay auctions.

The above quote was a visit a while back, I've gotten more invitations from TR but haven't been back. This weekend I did Vacation Solutions and Timeshare Acquisitions. All the same lies, both harped on the RCI rentals for cash, the ongoing MFs and SAs, the generational aspect, the Schedule 'D' deductions, eBay auctions that don't sell for $1, Jane Bryant Quinn NEWSWEEK article. They both said their niche was renting these acquired timeshares to corporate clients, uh-huh.

Both had a vacation club aspect that was 'free' with your payment, VS can be seen at their website and TSA is at CarefreeJourneys. Both claimed that they were purchasing for only a limited amount of time until they have all the inventory they need for their vacation club.

VS had two knockout twins doing the presentation. Presentation was on a flip chart. There were six parties present and three of them paid including the widow next to me with 238,000 FF/W points. Price was $3500 for a week with a today only deal of $3100 and add'l properties for $795. Vacation Club was free for life paying only when you booked a week. It appeared that they handle their own closings.

TSA had a team of four. 9am Sunday at a Courtyard Marriott. Got to the CY and they said it'd been moved to the Full Service Marriott up the road. Got to the Full Service Marriott and after quite a while waiting, they said it was at the Residence Inn Marriott further up the road and the reason for initial change was lack of power in the meeting rooms at the CY. They lost two, maybe more, attendees in the mixup. Presentation was with overhead projector. Price was $2995 but because of all we'd been through to get there they had called the owners and were dropping the price to $1500 for a week and add'l properties for $895 negotiable. There were seven parties present and six of them paid. Vacation Club was free for first year and $99/yr after that. TCS was their closing company. What was interesting was their list of forbidden resorts and resorts where for some reason they charged even more.

Forbidden Resorts
Club Vacances Magog, Mexico?
Neptune Hollywood Beach Club, Hollywood FL
Woodbourne Estates, Bahamas
Silver Lakes, Helendale CA
East Canyon Resort, Henefer UT
Celebrity Waikiki, Hawaii
Taino Beach Resort, Bahamas

Add'l Fees Resorts
American Resorts Int'l, Austria
Bluebeards Castle, St Thomas
Club Land'Or, Bahamas
Clube Praia da Oura, Portugal
Harbor Inn Resort, Canada
Krystal Int'l Vacation Club
Marina Del Rey Beach Club, Mexico
Rockley Plumtree Club, Barbados
Shanty Creek, Bellaire MI
Vista Mirage, Palm Springs CA
Lawrence Welk Desert Oasis, Cathedral City CA
ALL Campground Memberships
St Georges Club, Bermuda
Oceancliff I & II, Newport RI
Newport Bay Club, Newport RI
Celebrity Resorts Indian Shores, Indian Shores FL
Georgian Inn Beach Club, Ormond Beach FL
Atrium Resort, Virginia Beach VA
Catalina Beach Club, Daytona Beach FL

(Two parties had Land'Or and both paid extra $1200! (gladly))

[djyamyam Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close djyamyam]

While I haven't attended one of these presentations, is it possible to talk to one of the other attendees and buy their timeshare? Does the setting allow for that kind of discreet conversation?

I'm thinking that if I'm prepared to pay $xxx dollars to get rid of the thing and someone else there says "Save your 3500 bucks and I'll take it, I'd give that serious consideration". While the concept seems sound, would the logistics actually work?

[djyamyam Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close djyamyam]

What was interesting was their list of forbidden resorts and resorts where for some reason they charged even more.[/B]

Forbidden Resorts
Club Vacances Magog, Mexico?

This is the resort in Quebec, Canada, that went belly up and all the RTU owners were left with nothing. There was a very long thread on TUG about this.

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

While I haven't attended one of these presentations, is it possible to talk to one of the other attendees and buy their timeshare? Does the setting allow for that kind of discreet conversation?

I'm thinking that if I'm prepared to pay $xxx dollars to get rid of the thing and someone else there says "Save your 3500 bucks and I'll take it, I'd give that serious consideration". While the concept seems sound, would the logistics actually work?

It doesn't really lend itself to that. I saw this happen this weekend where two potential marks were talking and they ushered one of them out of the room and, I expect, chastised them for horning in on their business.

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

This is the resort in Quebec, Canada, that went belly up and all the RTU owners were left with nothing. There was a very long thread on TUG about this.

I knew I'd read something, that's why I put the '?' next to that one as the location didn't make sense to me.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Spence,

Very nice detective work. What is truly sad is that these post card companies are using the exact same techniques to get timeshare owners to make the same mistake multiple times and it costs them thousands of dollars each time.

What's the old adage? "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

If these poor timeshare owners upgraded their fixed weeks to points, then they could very well have been burned 3 times or more by these resort developer timeshare sales techniques.

It is sad to say that these post card companies exist because resorts and resort developers have not provided a mechanism for an efficient resale market. They could easliy do it, but then there would be conflict with their ongoing sales efforts. So, these companies are a natural by product of the Resort Developer's business model of luring folks in and closing them hard for 2-3 times the market price.

That will change over time. It will take a several years, but it will happen. And we will all be a part of the solution. The answer is education about timesharing and how easy it is to get great vacations for cheap if you know what you are doing. And, that education will come from a natural curiosity about why there are so many cheap timeshares selling on eBay.

For now, timesharing is like the Wild West. There are several mini-gold rushes. Lots of innocent people getting slaughtered and very little law enforcement.

[djyamyam Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close djyamyam]

It doesn't really lend itself to that. I saw this happen this weekend where two potential marks were talking and they ushered one of them out of the room and, I expect, chastised them for horning in on their business.

Too bad But you can't blame the person for trying.

[Laurie Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Laurie]

That will change over time. It will take a several years, but it will happen. And we will all be a part of the solution. The answer is education about timesharing and how easy it is to get great vacations for cheap if you know what you are doing. And, that education will come from a natural curiosity about why there are so many cheap timeshares selling on eBay.

And/or the good ol competition market economy: another individual company mirroring what they're doing (thru the mail, not the internet for now), charging weary TS-owners less $ ("it will only cost you $500"), and then less, and less, and less. A motivated TS4Ms or TUG person could certainly make a lucrative little business out of this for now, if they wanted to. They would have to cover mailing and marketing costs because these folks paying the bucks probably don't use the internet, ever. That's why those cheap timeshares selling on ebay, and their mysterious origins, won't cross their minds very often. I personally know people who never use the internet, never want to and never will - so until this entire generation has passed on, there need to be other options for them to get rid of these useless costly ownerships and other reliable ways to reach them.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

The victims of these companies cover a wide range of people. I saw one on the deed record that surprised me on the OBX, someone with two summer weeks, paying one of these outfits to take them. According to the resort manager they were longtime owners who used their weeks at the resort, but lived in one of the hard hit by hurricane towns in Florida and were behind a year or two on m/f's. These people were not among the clueless about timesharing, and it is unfortunate for them that they did not ask their resort to take a deedback. The resort would have done so.

[shopgirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close shopgirl]

Boca, I love the Wild West analogy. My minor was in American History with emphasis on the West, which was definitely wild.

Spence, you are an adventuresome person, going to more of these meetings. I have been collecting postcards from these companies and now have five totally different companies' postcards. Amazing how this has grown into such a huge business for so many.

What would you say was the average age of the victims? I feel certain that older people that do not use the internet are their targets. It bothers me that some of these older people could turn their weeks back to the resorts without any cost at all, but they don't bother to ask or look into it.

Timeshare has such a bad reputation and these companies are certainly not helping the situation.

[tonyg Goomba & Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tonyg]

It's bad enought that these people are conned out of their timeshare and money, but to then lead them to believe they can deduct the loss is really heinous. If they do as instructed, they will get hit with a penalty and interest and will find that no loss on a timeshare used for personal use is deductible.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

The false tax information these companies give to induce people to part with their timeshares and money, may be an angle for government agencies to go after these companies and shut them down.

[rod Member Find all posts View Profile Close rod]

I think I can explain why Shanty Creek is on the Additional Fees List.

Shanty Creek, Bellaire, Michigan, is a very large mixed use development with several timeshare operations within it. It has not been real successful; I believe that at present the lenders are once again in possession and are looking for someone else to take it off their hands.

The timeshares there have three seasons: ski season (Christmas Through February), summer (July and August), and off-season. Two of the timeshare operations associated with Shanty Creek took a different approach to selling the off-season weeks. They sold only bundled 4-week packages; a ski season week, a summer week, and two off-season weeks. Annual maintenance fees are presently in excess of $2500 for these packages. As you might imagine, these are just about impossible to sell for any price.

[StressCadet Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close StressCadet]

Silver Lakes, Helendale, Ca is literally in the middle of nowhere.....I should know...I live about 30 miles from it Yeah-there is a man made lake and a golf course-but it is in the middle of the desert half way to Barstow.

That property is often seen on Ebay not selling at even 1.00. They can't sell them.

Funny thing is...some people are making lemonade out of lemons for I see it all the time in DAE. If I am not mistaken you can take whatever you want out of DAE so almost anything is a vast improvement.