Class action filed against RCI on rental issue

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

I even Asked RCI on this.

Why would anyone rebuy their own week if RCI didn't say Week's trades will be dead in 5 years? I have been told that by RCI trained salesmen. Have you?

Walt

I went to a Points presentation at Fox Hills about 5 years ago. The salesman was trained by RCI. He was a man in retirement, never was a salesman, an Owners at Fox Hills, just trying to earn some extra money. I knew more about Timesharing than he did. RCI gave him a Can Sales Presentation for selling Points. After poining out I could get 2 weeks in South Dakota using 1 week of Points from Fox Hills (such a deal), he finished with the 5 years and dead story.

I went to another presentation on Points about a year ago. (meet us at the local Brookfield Hotel for some exciting information about Fox Hills) They did not say anything about Points in the invite. What they were selling was the idea that White and Blue Weeks mean nothing. You are just buying Points. They were using RCI sales force to sell out your Resort. They will price the Points so Fox Hills can sell out in 1 year. The Wroman, LLC saleman was making the pitch.

http://www.rci.com/GPN2/CDA/Function...thorizedAgents

You can buy White and Blue Weeks as Points Weeks and trade into a Red Week in Summer at Fox Hills. In other words you don't have to stay at Fox Hills in March. No one has to stay there in March. All owners at Fox Hills can stay at Fox Hills in summer. So all Summer Red Weeks are fair game to to Points Owners. Now if everyone that bought Summer Weeks used them instead of spacebanking them, where would that leave the Blue and White Points owners? How does "Points" create more Summer weeks at Fox Hills? It can't. There is a limit to the number of Red Weeks available at all RCI Resorts. If all Red Week Owners use their Red Week, the White and Blue owners are still out of luck trying to get into a Red Week, no matter how many Points they have. Points can not increase Supply. Only construction of new Resorts can.

Madge was asked about the 5 years and Weeks would be dead sales pitch by me. She said RCI had nothing to do with this. And RCI can not control Wroman, because they are and Outside Vendor. Where have I heard that?

Walt

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Why would anyone rebuy their own week if RCI didn't say Week's trades will be dead in 5 years? I have been told that by RCI trained salesmen. Have you?

Walt

When it comes to Points I really have to think hard to remember what our first reaction to it was. It was, why should we pay more, and substantially more, to be able to do what we have already been doing for close to 20 years, and likely not be as well off as we have been?
- - - - - -
Compare this to a tactic employed by another of our favorite timeshare companies, Westgate.

Several years ago I contacted them to try to swap weeks at one of their ugly-stepsister Orlando resorts, one they are so embarassed about they do not even list on their web-site, in their publications, or anywhere. All we wanted is to swap (ownership) Weeks 44 and 45 for something in the summer at the same resort.

After the standard dozen calls on my part I got a return call one Sunday night about 9 o'clock. It was from a pushy lady with a strong New York/New Jersey accent. She said everyone was dumping their ownership at our resort, that in a couple of years that resort would be toast. She tried to sell us one week at Westgate Lakes for $25,000 plus our two weeks at ugly stepsister resort.

(Of course that resort is still there today.)

First thing Monday morning I called Mr. Seagull's administrative assistant, who we had the great fortune of befriending, somehow, early on. She was always able to open the proper doors. An hour later CFI's mortgage administrator called and within 15 minutes she agreed to swap our 44/45 for a 28/29 at the same resort, for recording costs, $20 I believe.

In direct sales you must remember that fear of loss is stronger than desire for gain, so hardsell salespeople will employ that emotion whenever they can.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Bear in mind that Guides are an entry-level position. They are just saying what they have been trained to say. Although some stick around in at that level for an extended period, as Inside Guy once said, most do not even begin to have the knowledge and experience as many of you on TUG (there was no TS4Ms when he said that).

When I have to do business with a Guide I sometimes ask them a couple questions to check out their qualifications. Normally I will ask, "Where you at?", followed by "How long you been doing this?" Of course, if I get an Irish lass, I will add, "I just love the way you talk!"

It would be interesting to know what percentage of Guides do not even own timeshares, have not ever been on a tour, have not ever done for themselves what they are trying to do for subscribers.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Best value to points for resorts

I went to another presentation on Points about a year ago. (meet us at the local Brookfield Hotel for some exciting information about Fox Hills) They did not say anything about Points in the invite. What they were selling was the idea that White and Blue Weeks mean nothing. You are just buying Points. They were using RCI sales force to sell out your Resort. They will price the Points so Fox Hills can sell out in 1 year. The Wroman, LLC saleman was making the pitch.
Walt

This may be the best thing about points as far as resorts are concerned. One of the big problems for most areas of the country, less but still true to some degree in warm weather areas like FL, is the extreme seasonality of fixed weeks. Buy in the wrong period - even if the week can float over a set group of use times - and you are paying high fees with little value.

If a points system is set up right you can buy those same weeks as points and make them useful. You should only pay for the amount of points you get not the fixed rate that makes the dog weeks pay the same as the high demand times. When that happens all of a sudden what was a nearly impossible sale of off season time becomes an easy sell since points are points and fees are equalized across the various use times. Owners of the dog weeks pay less so they get value from that time. Yes a bright red high time owner pays more in annual fes but no more per point than the blue time owner - points are points. And everyone gets to choose how much they wish to spend vs what time/size unit they desire. Rather than undermining resorts a good points program should make them more viable as all time takes on a value rather than just the best use weeks.

I think it is those high time owners not wanting to pay the real cost for their ownership that causes the howl and cry against points. Currently the best weeks are subsidized by the poor weeks who then want to use RCI/II or whoever to upgrade that poor but expensive time to something better. Better to take the resort as an independent entity, spread the costs fairly over the value and then let those owners spend what they get as they see fit. No need to involve unrelated third parties in that scenerio and rentals are no threat to the system since no one is going to rent for less than they pay. The surplus of deposits dries up and everyone gets a fair value. Weeks can never make that happen as has been proven over 25 years of trying and failing.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Combining several maintenance fees to get one week in exchange, which is what this approach accomplishes, is very poor value. I cannot believe that many people would fall for it. The points presentations I have either been to or heard of normally take a different tack to sell off season points packages.
They don't even really talk about combining weeks. They harp on the 9000 point trades into the Week 45-day window. The only time that I have heard the ability to combine stressed is in the overview when they are trying to sell the more expensive weeks, not when they get down to the off season.

The Weeks 45-day window has been carrying a lot of water, justifying sales of both Weeks and Points off-season inventory. Now RCI is working hard to divert that inventory to rentals. It is just a matter of time before the s#%t
hits the fan for both Weeks and Points on RCI's little scam.

I also find it interested that RCI has not created an equivalent of the 45-day window within Points, at least on this side of the pond. I have read some references to reduced point last minute reservations in Europe, but have never looked into that issue. It may be another crossover arrangement for last minute Weeks inventory, like it is here, rather than for last minute Points inventory.

This may be the best thing about points as far as resorts are concerned. One of the big problems for most areas of the country, less but still true to some degree in warm weather areas like FL, is the extreme seasonality of fixed weeks. Buy in the wrong period - even if the week can float over a set group of use times - and you are paying high fees with little value.

If a points system is set up right you can buy those same weeks as points and make them useful. You should only pay for the amount of points you get not the fixed rate that makes the dog weeks pay the same as the high demand times. When that happens all of a sudden what was a nearly impossible sale of off season time becomes an easy sell since points are points and fees are equalized across the various use times. Owners of the dog weeks pay less so they get value from that time. Yes a bright red high time owner pays more in annual fes but no more per point than the blue time owner - points are points. And everyone gets to choose how much they wish to spend vs what time/size unit they desire. Rather than undermining resorts a good points program should make them more viable as all time takes on a value rather than just the best use weeks.

I think it is those high time owners not wanting to pay the real cost for their ownership that causes the howl and cry against points. Currently the best weeks are subsidized by the poor weeks who then want to use RCI/II or whoever to upgrade that poor but expensive time to something better. Better to take the resort as an independent entity, spread the costs fairly over the value and then let those owners spend what they get as they see fit. No need to involve unrelated third parties in that scenerio and rentals are no threat to the system since no one is going to rent for less than they pay. The surplus of deposits dries up and everyone gets a fair value. Weeks can never make that happen as has been proven over 25 years of trying and failing.

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

Great Post!!!!!

Combining several maintenance fees to get one week in exchange, which is what this approach accomplishes, is very poor value. I cannot believe that many people would fall for it. The points presentations I have either been to or heard of normally take a different tack to sell off season points packages.

The Weeks 45-day window has been carrying a lot of water, justifying sales of both Weeks and Points off-season inventory. Now RCI is working hard to divert that inventory to rentals. It is just a matter of time before the s#%t
hits the fan for both Weeks and Points on RCI's little scam.

Hi Steve,

This is a Great Post. I think our 2 points needs repeating again and again.

I doubt that most buyers of Points even thought of this.

I don't recall seeing either point being written on Tug or here before.

2 non Hawaii weeks for 1 Hawaii week Doubles the cost of your trade.

It would be cheaper to Rent. Again, we come full circle. Why Buy when you can Rent for less?

Renting in turn also reduces the value of your timeshare Weeks in the market place Weeks.

But then, isn't this what this Thread is about? The harm RCI is doing by renting.

Walt

PS. It seems that that the Pro RCI group is not going to post on these Threads in order to keep the fire down. This appears to be their way of damage control.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Early on in our ownership, in Weeks of course, we had wanted to be able to trade two weeks for some one-week exchanges. I never could understand why that was not allowed, if a person were willing to do it for those occasional really-special vacations. Why would they not be willing to make twice as much off of us for one vacation?

It also seemed like the logical way around the Trading Power issue, to deal with those crappy off-season weeks and lesser resorts. They cost less to buy so it would be natural for the owner to assume it might take two, or three, to get the same vacation as a prime week deposit.

Is that not essentally the same logic as offering Bonus Weeks (ACs) for prime week deposits?

Weeks could have been tweaked to semi-perfection rather than used to build a new system. But there would not have been any money in that and compared to Points, Weeks is pretty easy to understand and figure out, and I'm sure that is something they did not like.

But, before someone says, "That is the point of Points," keep in mind that I did not say that we would be willing to pay a substantial additonal fee to be able to do that.

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

Another Great Post!

Weeks could have been tweaked to semi-perfection rather than used to build a new system. But there would not have been any money in that and compared to Points, Weeks is pretty easy to understand and figure out, and I'm sure that is something they did not like.

Another Great post. 3 important points.

1) Weeks System could have beenTweaked
2) More income to RCI and Resorts (rebuying your week)
3) Points harder to understand (You know why RCI would want this)

Walt

[4ARedOctober Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close 4ARedOctober]

And don't forget how changing the points value for any week is very easy to do and can be manipulated at any time. This was the main drawback for me from the beginning.....loss of any control.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Read the part that says done right

Combining several maintenance fees to get one week in exchange, which is what this approach accomplishes, is very poor value. I cannot believe that many people would fall for it. The points presentations I have either been to or heard of normally take a different tack to sell off season points packages.
They don't even really talk about combining weeks. They harp on the 9000 point trades into the Week 45-day window. The only time that I have heard the ability to combine stressed is in the overview when they are trying to sell the more expensive weeks, not when they get down to the off season.

The Weeks 45-day window has been carrying a lot of water, justifying sales of both Weeks and Points off-season inventory. Now RCI is working hard to divert that inventory to rentals. It is just a matter of time before the s#%t
hits the fan for both Weeks and Points on RCI's little scam.

I also find it interested that RCI has not created an equivalent of the 45-day window within Points, at least on this side of the pond. I have read some references to reduced point last minute reservations in Europe, but have never looked into that issue. It may be another crossover arrangement for last minute Weeks inventory, like it is here, rather than for last minute Points inventory.

Two things. One is people ARE willing to combine weeks if the fees are reasonable to get what they really want. Weeks won't allow it (I know ithey could but they don't) and points does.

Two. A key to that post is implementing points correctly. A correct implementation doesn't base fees on the week but on the value of points recieved. So if you only get 10K points it's 10,000 x sya $.01 per point as your annual fee. If your time is worth 50K then your annual fee is 50,000 x $.01. That is the way the well run systems do it and it really does make a point a point in cost. Thus owning a blue week worth 10K isn't any more undesireable than owning a red week at 50K since the cost per point is equal.

As the systems shake out that is the model they must follow to be successful. Already there are some RCI Points resort that do that and many of the multi-resort mini systems do. That ends the built in subsidy that weeks ownership has often given to the owners of the best times from the unfair level of fees on the off times. If you are serious about wanting resorts to survive that is the model you should be pushing. Not the continuation of the old way of trying to give value to the off seasons by expecting exchange companies to upgrade it to something better.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

But as has been pointed out before - 1) state law in some states will not allow HOA's to charge different fees for different weeks, and 2) as a practical matter, most sold out resorts would find it almost impossible to make such a change even if they wanted to.

Points has been around longer than Weeks (Hapimag was the first) and the market has chosen the Weeks model. Now RCI is trying to forcefeed points to the market. It won't work in the end.

But back on topic, exchange company rentals of exchange deposits to the general public are bad for everybody, and need to be ended.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

For the record. Rentals of exchanges are bad

But as has been pointed out before - 1) state law in some states will not allow HOA's to charge different fees for different weeks, and 2) as a practical matter, most sold out resorts would find it almost impossible to make such a change even if they wanted to.

True. But if a resort/developer is serious about being fair they can get around that by not selling a week but a number of points based on x number of use days. Thus the total of the week will be equal for all but the value an owner gets from his share is level depending on the amount of points he is assigned. Being closed minded to a better way to spread the costs is what will cause resort failures not the move to points.

You say the world of timeshare wants weeks - I see the choice as points. We will always disagree on that I assume.

But back on topic, exchange company rentals of exchange deposits to the general public are bad for everybody, and need to be ended.

Agreed. I think it is the weeks process that causes the need to rent. You feel it is the points side. Again we will continue to disagree on that. I don't see anyway anything we say is going to stop it in any case unless all deposits to any exchange system that rents are stopped. That isn't going to happen either.

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

True. But if a resort/developer is serious about being fair they can get around that by not selling a week but a number of points based on x number of use days. Thus the total of the week will be equal for all but the value an owner gets from his share is level depending on the amount of points he is assigned. Being closed minded to a better way to spread the costs is what will cause resort failures not the move to points.

You say the world of timeshare wants weeks - I see the choice as points. We will always disagree on that I assume.



Agreed. I think it is the weeks process that causes the need to rent. You feel it is the points side. Again we will continue to disagree on that. I don't see anyway anything we say is going to stop it in any case unless all deposits to any exchange system that rents are stopped. That isn't going to happen either.

Hi John,

Could you give me your take on this Post to Ask RCI.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthr...644#post142644

Is Snap Travel really an Outside Vendor?

Is there something wrong with OUR (Membership Fee) VCs doing this work for Snap Travel? How do they know how to charge Snap Travel if they are?

You can see Madge has not been in any hurry to answer the question.

Walt

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

It's RCI decision to make

Walt - Pretty lame isn't it? If they want to play a game that Snaptravel is an independent they sure didn't cover the tracks very well.

Again that is a corporate decision. We members cannot claim to have control over how RCI decides to spend the labor they hire. If response times for calls to RCI suffer because the agents are busy taking Snap calls then RCI members will leave. That is under RCI control and at their risk. We either choose to pay the annual membership to belong or not. We cannot tell them how to assign their labor pool any more than we can tell Ford how to pay their workers and what they can/can't do on the job.

[taffy19 Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close taffy19]

True. But if a resort/developer is serious about being fair they can get around that by not selling a week but a number of points based on x number of use days. Thus the total of the week will be equal for all but the value an owner gets from his share is level depending on the amount of points he is assigned. Being closed minded to a better way to spread the costs is what will cause resort failures not the move to points.

You say the world of timeshare wants weeks - I see the choice as points. We will always disagree on that I assume.



Agreed. I think it is the weeks process that causes the need to rent. You feel it is the points side. Again we will continue to disagree on that. I don't see anyway anything we say is going to stop it in any case unless all deposits to any exchange system that rents are stopped. That isn't going to happen either.

First of all, I agree with your heading. Renting would only be a last resort if none of the members want that week. They should do away with the other perks (flights and cruises, etc.) as they complicate the system too much.

Second, a week is a week is a week but points are not all equal because there are too many point based systems out there and everyone is different so how can you ever make it work great? A point based system would work great if all companies belonged to the same system and I doubt if that will ever happen. JMHO.