Fat folks pay more.....

[Keitht Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Keitht]

Ryanair are at it again. Recently they made noises about charging to use the loo on their planes. Presumably the publicity from that has died down as they now have another idea generating masses of free advertising on the TV news and in the papers.

The latest proposal is to charge men weighing over 20 stone (280lb) and women weighing over 15 stone(210lb) extra because they use more fuel and take up more seat space.
As it's accepted that it's impractical to put every passenger on scales at check-in, it seems the idea is that if the passenger would 'over hang' the armrest of the seat they get hit with an extra charge. To be perfectly honest I'm not actually opposed to the idea. I've been on a flight where I could only occupy 1/2 the seat because the extremely obese gent in the adjoining seat was already in the other 1/2!!!!!!! I accept that some people can't help their weight, but that doesn't alter the fact that I paid the same as him for my seat and want all the very limited space for myself.

[lawren2 Malibu Beach Barbie & A Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close lawren2]

They could just have everybody step on the luggage scale. I have never packed as carefully as I did for the Dublin to London leg of our trip on Ryan Air

In my younger days a good friend was a flight attendant and she would sometimes tell me that the larger clients would, at times, pay for a second seat but then demand the second in-flight meal.

[3kids4me Super Moderator and Super Mom Find all posts View Profile Close 3kids4me]

Wait...so a man weighing 220 pounds is okay but a woman weighing 220 pounds isn't? Does the woman use more fuel?

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Wait...so a man weighing 220 pounds is okay but a woman weighing 220 pounds isn't? Does the woman use more fuel?

Wow, a sex discrimination case.

Jya-Ning

[GrayFal Silver Contributor and supermoderator Find all posts View Profile Close GrayFal]

Southwest Airlines already has this policy....

Southwest Airlines Travel Policies - Guidelines for Customers of Size

Guidelines for Customers of Size

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Customers who are unable to lower both armrests (the definitive boundary between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel. This purchase serves as a notification of a special seating need and allows us to process a refund of the additional seating cost after travel (provided the flight doesn’t oversell). Most importantly, it ensures that all onboard have access to safe and comfortable seating.

For more information, please refer to our Customer of size Q&A
Southwest Airlines Travel Policies - Customer of Size Q&A

Customer of Size Q&A

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Is the policy unique or new to Southwest Airlines?
No, other carriers have similar policies, but to the best of our knowledge, no other carrier offers a refund after travel. We’ve followed this policy for 28 of our 37 years of operation, but only became more vigilant regarding the additional purchase when we began seeing an increase in the number of valid complaints from passengers who traveled without full access to the seat purchased because a large Customer infringed upon the adjacent seating space.

Why ask large Customers to purchase additional seating?
We could no longer ignore complaints from Customers who traveled without full access to the seat purchased due to encroachment by a large seatmate whose body extended into the neighboring seat. These Customers had uncomfortable (and sometimes painful) travel experiences, and it is our responsibility to seek resolution to prevent this problem.

What is the cost of the additional seating?
If the Customer is holding an advance purchase, discounted fare, the second seat will be sold at the same discounted fare. If the Customer has purchased one of our low, unrestricted full fares, the second seat will be sold at the Child's Fare.

What is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size?
The armrest is the definitive gauge, as it serves as the boundary between seats. Customers who are unable to lower the armrests (the definitive boundary between seats) and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed during initial reservations.

How do I qualify for and request a refund of the additional seat purchase?
As long as the flight does not oversell (having more confirmed Customers waiting to board an aircraft than seats on the aircraft), we will refund the additional seat purchase after travel. A Refund Advice Slip, a guide for conveniently requesting refunds (via telephone or letter), is provided to the Customer of size at checkin. And, if it appears a flight will oversell, the option to purchase a second seat and travel on a less full flight is available.

Are there other reasons to purchase additional seating?
Yes, Customers wishing to secure in an aircraft seat a musical item, a child restraint device for an infant, etc. must purchase an additional ticket. However, these Customers have other "options" such as holding an infant under the age of two as a lap child or placing the instrument in an onboard stowage space or in the cargo hold, and we are sensitive to fact that a large Customer has no option regarding seating space. For that reason, we offer a refund of the additional seat purchased (by a Customer of size) as long as the flight does not oversell.

Won't this be embarrassing to the large Customer and the Employee?
It’s tough to speak privately in an airport setting, and because a discussion about size is sensitive, we’ve cautioned our Employees to use discretion. Yes, it’s difficult to deliver or receive a sensitive message, and to alleviate confusion, we encourage Customers with unique seating needs to proactively purchase additional seating (again, this is to notify us of the unique need). We ask this to accommodate our Customers in comfort and avoid embarrassing conversation. Ultimately, it is the Customer’s responsibility to communicate with us upfront (at the time of booking) about his/her seating needs so that we may best serve him/her and all others onboard.

I am a large person and use a seatbelt extension, but I fit in one aircraft seat. Do I have to purchase two seats?
Our policy does not focus on weight, and the seatbelt extension is not the determining factor. We use the ability to lower the armrests as the gauge, as the armrests are truly the definitive boundary between each seat.

Are all overweight people subject to the policy?
Many Americans are "overweight" or "clinically obese." A number of overweight or obese people occupy only one seat. In fact, many Customers may use a seatbelt extension but occupy only one seat, and these Customers would not be asked to reserve a second seat. If a Customer cannot lower the armrest (and is unable to comfortably travel with it in the down position), he/she is required to pay for the additional seat occupied. Again, we will offer a refund if the flight does not oversell.

I’m large but can be seated with the armrests down. Aren’t your Employees wrong to question me?
If a concern exists, we shouldn’t ignore it even if it’s difficult for both parties to discuss. Condoning an unsafe, cramped seating arrangement onboard our aircraft is far more inappropriate than simply questioning a Customer’s fit in our seats.
Why not make your seats wider or add a few wide seats on your aircraft?
Our ongoing goal is to operate a low-fare, low cost airline, and the costs of reconfiguring our fleet would be staggering and would ultimately reflect in the form of higher fares for our Customers. Purchasing two seats on Southwest Airlines is significantly less expensive than purchasing one first class seat on another airline.

If a flight is "open," why are you charging for an additional seat?
A Customer of size has no way of knowing at the time of booking if his/her flights will be full. The inconsistency of charging for the extra seat on one occasion and not others leaves the Customer not knowing what to expect and not having a full understanding of our policy. Thus, we require the additional purchase despite booking levels.

Why can't two large Customers share their second seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that there will be an entire row open for two Customers to sit together and share the middle seat on each leg of the trip.

Why can't a large Customer sit with a family member who doesn't mind being encroached upon or a small child/person who doesn't take a full seat?
Open seating cannot guarantee that two people will be able to sit together. In addition, we must treat the smaller person (despite willingness or personal relationship) as a valued Customer who deserves the use of a full seat. Most importantly, we have to consider the safety aspect of the family member whose movement (especially in the event of an emergency) could be compromised if encroached on by a large seatmate.

Isn't this policy just another way to increase your revenue?
No, we are not "making money" from this policy. In addition to giving the Customer a refund for the second seat, we are absorbing the administrative costs (staffing and processing) of issuing the refund. 98 percent of extra seat purchases qualify for a refund, as a refund request is declined only in the event of an oversale that causes us to deny transportation to a confirmed Customer (to whom we must issue denied boarding compensation).

If a Customer has broad shoulders, will he/she have to buy a second seat?
Again, if a Customer cannot lower the armrests, the additional purchase is necessary. Simply having broad shoulders would not necessarily prevent another Customer from occupying adjoining seat. The upper body can be adjusted, but the portion of the body in the actual seating and armrest area doesn’t have this flexibility.

Why isn’t this information on your tickets, referenced on the booking/reservations pages of your web site, or questioned by your Reservations Employees?
We estimate that the Customer of size policy affects far less than half a percent of our Customers, and ultimately, it is the responsibility of a Customer with a unique and unusual need to communicate with us upfront so that we may best serve him/her and all others onboard. We won’t know of an unusual need unless the Customer tells us.

Doesn't your policy violate the Americans with Disabilities Act or the Air Carrier Access Act?
Interstate airline travel is specifically excluded from Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) by Section 12141(2). Airline travel is instead covered by the Air Carrier Access Act, 49 U.S.C. 1374(c) and the regulations implementing the Act issued by the Department of Transportation as 14 CFR Part 382, et seq. The Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) preceded the ADA, and Congress excluded air carriers and other air transportation services from the scope of ADA. As regulated under 14 CFR §382.38 Seating accommodations (i) "Carriers are not required to furnish more than one seat per ticket or to provide a seat in a class of service other than the one the passenger has purchased."

Can I be preapproved as needing only one seat?
Because size can fluctuate, we are unable to give blanket authorization.
How will you ensure no one takes the seat beside me if I've purchased a second seat?
The Customer who has purchased two seats must be an active participant in preserving his/her additional seat. We encourage Customers of size to preboard to locate adequate seating, placing the Reserved Seat Document in the adjacent seat. Our Ground Operations and Inflight Employees communicate about special needs Customers, and if a Customer of size needs seating assistance, he/she should ask an Employee for help.

I'm pregnant, will I have to purchase two seats?
A woman who is pregnant does not occupy two seats if she can lower the armrests.

Can I check in using an E-Ticket Check-In kiosk or online checkin?
Because a Customer of size has special seating needs; is encouraged to preboard; and needs specific boarding/seating documents, these Customers are required to check in with a Customer Service Agent at the ticket counter or at the gate. A Skycap can assist a Customer of size with baggage and provide an escort to the ticket counter, and a Customer of size wishing to bypass the ticket counter may simply print a Security Document online for access through the security checkpoint. At checkin, a Customer of size will receive a boarding pass, Reserved Seat Document, Refund Advice Slip, and preboarding direction.

Isn't this policy discriminatory toward large Customers?
Southwest Airlines does not condone discrimination in any form. We have Employees and Customers of all races, ethnicity, religions, shapes, and sizes. Our Mission and our responsibility per our Contract of Carriage is to provide safe and comfortable air transportation for each and every Customer. This policy has been upheld in court and is supported by the Department of Transportation’s stance that the purchase of a single ticket offers the use of a single seat.

[Luanne Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Luanne]

Southwest Airlines already has this policy....

And United is instituting it as well.

United obese: United Airlines to make large, heavy fliers pay for two seats -- chicagotribune.com

[Ann-Marie Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Ann-Marie]

Larger size people are already being penalized because there clothing takes up more room. So now when we have to pay for an additional piece of luggage, it really stinks. That also means people who are tall. My neighbor is 5 ft. tall, and probably 90 pounds. My DH and I are 6 ft. tall and not quite 90 pounds! She can certainly get more articles of clothing in one suitcase than I can.

[bezerk Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close bezerk]

Okay so I am under 110 pounds do I get a cheaper flight then, since use less fuel. I only take up half the seat and yes I have been squished by a larger person besides me, so do I get a discount for this then...........

[Keitht Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Keitht]

The South West policy seems to have been well thought out and well described in the documentation. As it says, weight and/or height alone aren't enough to determine whether a person can fit within the confines of a seat. The simple 'lowered armrest' test is simple and definitive.

[x3skier Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close x3skier]

Good ploicy / rule

The South West policy seems to have been well thought out and well described in the documentation. As it says, weight and/or height alone aren't enough to determine whether a person can fit within the confines of a seat. The simple 'lowered armrest' test is simple and definitive.

I agree. If one occupies more than one seat, one should pay for more than one seat. I have had to share my seat with another person and it is not the most pleasant situation in the world.

I only hope cell phones are continue to be banned on flights in the USA.

Cheers

[Pstreet1 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Pstreet1]

I think the Southwest policy is very well done. While oversize people may feel they are being discriminated against if they have to pay more, it is they who are intruding on others--not others who are intruding on them. The intruders are the ones who should have to pay more. Each person is entitled to what he paid for. If I pay for a seat, I am entitled to it--100% of it.

[Nancy Platinum Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Nancy]

PStreet says it very well. I'm not exactly slim, but I can fit into one seat. I had a problem once where I was in middle seat and both sides extended onto mine. Luckily, there was an empty seat and stewardess let me move.

Nancy

[Dori Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dori]

On our flight from Buffalo to Las Vages last week, DH sat beside a very large gentleman, and was squished into a corner of his seat the whole way. It was most uncomfortable for him.

Dori

[joycapecod Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close joycapecod]

I am short (can stand straight under the overheads on a domestic flight) and don't take up the entire seat, but I resent when I am squeezed between two larger people. Oftentimes they will even have the nerve to ask if I mind them putting the armrest up. I want to sream "Yes, I do!" but also don't want to make a commotion. I think this is an excellent idea and only fair to those that fit in one seat.

Joy

[mdurette Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mdurette]

Ok - so I agree with SW policy 100%.

But with that said. I think I would prefer to sit next to a person of size than someone who hadn't bathed in a week. Or a person who was obviously drunk.