read about immoral practice

[bigfrank Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close bigfrank]

Unless there is some weird law in one of the states I'm unaware of, you can NOT inherit a debt. The debt dies with the deceased and is paid out of the estate of the deceased.

My mother died 9 years ago. All debts the were filed with the estate after appropriate notice was given were paid. The few that did not file a claim with the estate were not paid and were just out of luck. One was a $15,000 debt with Greentree financial services. I was the only heir to the estate. Greentree had no recourse against me when the estate was closed.

I'm not certain why everyone thinks that MF's are forever or why they think the heirs of the estate must pay them but, that information is just not correct. You are not forced to accept an anything you do not want and debt is not inheriatable.

What you are saying about The debt dies with the deceased and is paid out of the estate of the deceased. Is what I was saying only I worded it it as the inherter would have to pay the debt before taking ownership which in this case he does not want but it will have to be paid one way or the other if they should put a lien some where along the line.

[dougp26364 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dougp26364]

hi everyone, i posted this on a yahoo group recently and thought it would go well here also...i dont know how often i'll be back but if youd like to write me with your thoughts, you are welcome to send them to me at rwf4444@yahoo.com

Approximately 7-8 years ago, my mother purchased a unit at Bluebeard’s Castle. Well intending, but without my knowing, she signed my name on the deed, making me a co-owner with her. Some many years later, between my mother’s health deteriorating, her not being able to work, and the exorbitant rise in the maintenance fees, she became unable to make the payments. She has tried to sell/give away the unit but has not found any takers.
I found out I was an “owner” about six months ago by receiving a notice from a debt collection agency, Meridian, informing me I owed Bluebeard’s (and them) two years worth of maintenance fees. I asked my mother about it and that was when she told me when she bought the place, she had signed my name.

I called Meridian and told them the debt was not mine. My mother called them and told them what had occurred; they wouldn’t budge. Both of us also wrote Bluebeard’s board of directors and told them what had happened. With the exception of John Enrietto, we were met with incredibly little sympathy. I have never used the timeshare, never paid into it, didn’t sign my name, and didn’t know it was mine. The board (Ira Frank, Dick Cornell, and Ken Drew) wouldn’t budge either. They suggested, among other things, that I pay the debt and, if you can believe it, to sue my mother. I suggested that their zealousness to collect money had clouded their judgment.

Ira eventually put me in contact with Paul Goodrich, who was supposed to “investigate” the matter. The days turned into weeks turned into months and were full of unreturned phone calls, unreturned emails, and unanswered questions. One question I was fond of asking was, “would you pay the debt if my mother had put your name on the deed, or President Bush’s?” The fact that I am related to and know my mother is inconsequential. That question never got answered. I also sent a copy of the document with my mother’s fake signature of my name and a number of documents with my real signature—apparently to no avail.

In the interim I had applied for a home loan and I’m not able to close on it while I have this “bad credit”. If you look at the message boards, the board of directors considers this as evidence that their debt collection practices are being effective. It might be that for some people, but for me, I take it rather as evidence that the board of directors lack discernment and is hiding behind what apparently is legal with little or no regard for what is moral.

Three months later, I finally contacted upper management, Bill Young, Greg Shepherd, Peter Gianini and George Selensky, telling them the same thing I’ve written here and asked them please to take my name off the debt at Meridian. Here was their response: “Since your name is on the deed you are jointly liable for the fees with your mother.” Does anyone else find it incredibly appalling that people can be held liable for a debt that they themselves did not create—and that no one had to witness the signatures wherein property changes hands?

Suppose I got a hold of Dick Cornell’s credit card numbers and ran up a debt, purchasing things without his assent or knowledge? Would he be culpable for the debt? No—and the bank would readily accept the explanation, and absolve Dick from the debt. In fact, this was John Enrietto’s partial solution—which the board rejected.

To make matters worse, adding insult to injury---as I mentioned earlier, my mother can’t get rid of the timeshare. Following SPM’s suggestion, as well as our own wisdom, we wanted to take my name off the deed so that debt wouldn’t continue to accumulate in my name---and then SPM had the idiotic gall to write “Note that you have admitted ownership to some degree by signing a deed (for something you claim you do not own) to transfer ownership (which you claim you do not have) back to your mom.” That is the very definition of damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

I see from looking around here a little that many of you are having problems (By the way, I tried to join under my own name and email address and was denied. I can only surmise that Ken Drew recognized my name and refused to let me in.) Hopefully many of you can empathize with the situation---one I didn’t create and one in which the board and the management company have the power to fix, but refuse---and which by far is the most unethical decision I’ve ever been involved with.

If there is something you can do to help, I’d love that and I’m absolutely all ears…

In order to enforce their claim, they're going to have to prove that is your signature on the contract. Since it was forged, they won't be able to do that.
I would inform them first, that it was not mysignature on the contract and second, that they must prove that it is my signature, which they can not do.

The next thing to do is file a statement a dispute with the credit bureau stating your position that you do not owe this bill, that your signature was forged and that this is not a legitimate claim. Somtimes this is enough to take care of the ding on your credit if the party filing the claim is not willing to enforce the claim in court but I wouldn't count on that.

Now it comes down to how valuable your credit rating is. Is it important enough to take legal action to clear you name? It's going to cost you a couple of dollars to get an opinion but, I'd at least spend the money for that opinion. Sometimes all it takes is a threatening letter for an attorney's office to get things rectified. I almost believe that a letter threatening to take action on your behalf will get things straightened out. If they can not prove that it's your signature, and if it's forged they can't do that, then it won't be worth their effort to defend this in court. Going to court takes money and no one wants to waste money when they can't prove their side.

Years ago I had someone take a credit card out in my name with Capital One. They ran the card to the maximum limit the first month and never paid a dime on it. They did the same thing to me this timeshare is doing to you. They gave me the same stonewall this timeshare is doing to you. I never made it to the attorney's office but I did have to make a couple of phone calls and tell them that, if they didn't take the debt off my credit report, the next step would be court and I'd want money for my trouble and the problems they had caused me. They had the wrong S.S. #, wrong employer, wrong address, wrong DOB and wrong mothers maiden name. I pointed out I could prove these things easily in a court of law and I could likely prove that they had damaged my credit by not removing this inaccurate information after I had provided them with this information. They removed the bad information from my record.

The timeshare can not prove that you signed the contract and you should be able to prove it's not your signature. This shouldn't be much of a challange and I wouldn't put up with a lot of BS from them.

[dougp26364 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dougp26364]

What you are saying about The debt dies with the deceased and is paid out of the estate of the deceased. Is what I was saying only I worded it it as the inherter would have to pay the debt before taking ownership which in this case he does not want but it will have to be paid one way or the other if they should put a lien some where along the line.

Then I misread what you wrote. If his mother were to pass away then the debt would be have to be paid by the estate, so long as a claim was made against the estate, before the estate gives out any inheritance. The debt is paid by the estate and not the person inheriting the property. It could be a mistake for an individual to pay off a debt of the estate without an opinion of the probate court before the estate has been settled.

While the result is essentially the same, the mechanism is different. The heirs will get less money when the estate is settled but, they do not pay the debt themselves or out of their personal funds. They just recieve less cash and/or property when the estate is settled.

[richardr Member Find all posts View Profile Close richardr]

Since the principal owing appears to have been paid & only 2 years of mf's are owing' Spence's advice in post #7 is the most practical.

Pay the overdue fees & either enjoy the use of the ts or list it on E-Bay.If you include the 07 & 08 weeks as prepaid you might have a better chance of getting all or part of those fees back than if you require the payment of those amount in addition to the purchase price.

Since your mother paid for the ts in full it would appear to me that she was merely trying to give you a gift & simplify her estate by putting you on title.For you to sue her now would be most ungrateful.No good or honest lawyer would take that law suit on.

A lawsuit against the HOA would also involve your mother & its cost & complications would only enrich the lawyers!

Sell it as Spence suggests or accept the gift from your mother & learn how to use the ts !

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

In order to enforce their claim, they're going to have to prove that is your signature on the contract. Since it was forged, they won't be able to do that.
I would inform them first, that it was not mysignature on the contract and second, that they must prove that it is my signature, which they can not do.

The next thing to do is file a statement a dispute with the credit bureau stating your position that you do not owe this bill, that your signature was forged and that this is not a legitimate claim. Somtimes this is enough to take care of the ding on your credit if the party filing the claim is not willing to enforce the claim in court but I wouldn't count on that.

Now it comes down to how valuable your credit rating is. Is it important enough to take legal action to clear you name? It's going to cost you a couple of dollars to get an opinion but, I'd at least spend the money for that opinion. Sometimes all it takes is a threatening letter for an attorney's office to get things rectified. I almost believe that a letter threatening to take action on your behalf will get things straightened out. If they can not prove that it's your signature, and if it's forged they can't do that, then it won't be worth their effort to defend this in court. Going to court takes money and no one wants to waste money when they can't prove their side.

Years ago I had someone take a credit card out in my name with Capital One. They ran the card to the maximum limit the first month and never paid a dime on it. They did the same thing to me this timeshare is doing to you. They gave me the same stonewall this timeshare is doing to you. I never made it to the attorney's office but I did have to make a couple of phone calls and tell them that, if they didn't take the debt off my credit report, the next step would be court and I'd want money for my trouble and the problems they had caused me. They had the wrong S.S. #, wrong employer, wrong address, wrong DOB and wrong mothers maiden name. I pointed out I could prove these things easily in a court of law and I could likely prove that they had damaged my credit by not removing this inaccurate information after I had provided them with this information. They removed the bad information from my record.

The timeshare can not prove that you signed the contract and you should be able to prove it's not your signature. This shouldn't be much of a challange and I wouldn't put up with a lot of BS from them.

Doug - You have it completely reversed. The only thing the resort has to "prove" is that a deed was filed and that they are billing the people whose name(s) appear on that deed. They are under ZERO obligation to prove the signature(s) real or fake as they did not file the deed or place any signatures on it. Thats why a timeshare sale isn't complete until the new deed with the owners names on it is recorded by the local jurisdiction - then the resort gets a copy. They don't create or file any deeds the buyers and the sellers do that. You are trying to place a responsibility on a group (the resort/HOA) that doesn't by any stretch of any possible theory have it.

It is not "BS" to demand payment from those who hold the recorded deed. It is the responsibility of the management to collect from anyone who is responsible. That would be those whose name are on a recorded deed. If not why couldn't a resort - our good buddies at Wastegate for a great example simply say that they believe a recorded deed has a forged name and therefore it is invalid - Wastegate claims the week unless the deeded owner PROVES its his signature? No dice. The proof is the fact that it met the requirements to be recorded. If some forged a name you go after them. If a notary didn't properly identify the parties go after them. The resort isn't involved. If it wrong it's up to the party that feels it's invalid to prove it AND get satisfaction from those who did the forgery. That party can't make the resort prove it's real or every blue week owner would be taking resorts to court in the hope they wouldn't have the money to "prove" the deed belongs to them.

As said before this is an owner until HE takes the steps needed to be legally removed from the deed.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Steve - It is his word that there was forgery - not a clear case & knowledge by the HOA. It is up to him to get his name off the deed correctly not a job for the HOA. All they can go by is what the recorded deed states. They cannot and should not spend owners money trying to find out if a signature is forged or not. The recorded deed trumps anything else until it is legally changed. The HOA cannot change it. He is complaining about the wrong party.

Not, if the forgery was blatantly obvious to a layman, as many in such a situation would be. I doubt if his mother went to much trouble to duplicate the way he signed his name under circumstances like this. The recorded deed itself would show the forged signature if it deviates substantially from the actual signature.

[dougp26364 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dougp26364]

Doug - You have it completely reversed. The only thing the resort has to "prove" is that a deed was filed and that they are billing the people whose name(s) appear on that deed. They are under ZERO obligation to prove the signature(s) real or fake as they did not file the deed or place any signatures on it. Thats why a timeshare sale isn't complete until the new deed with the owners names on it is recorded by the local jurisdiction - then the resort gets a copy. They don't create or file any deeds the buyers and the sellers do that. You are trying to place a responsibility on a group (the resort/HOA) that doesn't by any stretch of any possible theory have it.

It is not "BS" to demand payment from those who hold the recorded deed. It is the responsibility of the management to collect from anyone who is responsible. That would be those whose name are on a recorded deed. If not why couldn't a resort - our good buddies at Wastegate for a great example simply say that they believe a recorded deed has a forged name and therefore it is invalid - Wastegate claims the week unless the deeded owner PROVES its his signature? No dice. The proof is the fact that it met the requirements to be recorded. If some forged a name you go after them. If a notary didn't properly identify the parties go after them. The resort isn't involved. If it wrong it's up to the party that feels it's invalid to prove it AND get satisfaction from those who did the forgery. That party can't make the resort prove it's real or every blue week owner would be taking resorts to court in the hope they wouldn't have the money to "prove" the deed belongs to them.

As said before this is an owner until HE takes the steps needed to be legally removed from the deed.

If this were the case, then I could go out and buy property and place people's names on the deed that I did not like. Then I could default on the loans and force them to pay the balance to save their credit. Or, as in my example, I could take out credit in other peoples names, run up the tab and they would be responsible for the bill. Somehow I don't believe this would work.

This man did not apply for or accept ownership of this "gift." They have no right to collect on it and he has no obligation to pay for it. It will not be an enforcable debt at the very least. I do not believe that it will be that hard to prove in a court of law that he did not sign the documents.

He will not have to file suit against his mother. He will only need to prove he did not sign, had no knowledge of and did not accept the "gift." His issue is not with his mother so much as it is proving he did not sign the contract and/or deed. The entity holding the debt may be able to file charges against his mother for forgery but, they'll also have to answer for why the accepted the signature in the first place. Something I doubt very will be interested in doing.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

If this were the case, then I could go out and buy property and place people's names on the deed that I did not like. Then I could default on the loans and force them to pay the balance to save their credit. Or, as in my example, I could take out credit in other peoples names, run up the tab and they would be responsible for the bill. Somehow I don't believe this would work.

No deed I've ever heard of, regardless of jurisdiction, can be recorded without notarized signatures. If whoever creates and files the deed is good enough to get a notary to certify it and get it recorded it will be those names that own the property. Now if forgery is involved the deed can later be voided - and if it is the resort (or condo or property parcel) would revert to the previous legal owner or owners but none of that involves the condo/timeshare association(s). The deed is a legal document proving ownership and is the basis for levee of taxes, common charges and having the right to use/sell a property. If it is faulty in any way it certainly can and should be corrected - but the Association / Condo / County where the property is located has no right to make that correction but must honor a corrected deed if that is properly drawn up and recorded.

It is simply jumping too far ahead in the process and legal obligations to say that a timeshare / condo/ County - whatever - has to make the efforts and run up the cost to verify that a deed is valid. They don't have that responsibility and in fact I doubt they have any legal standing to do that. There is a system in place to establish the proper owner(s) of record. It is the recorded deed and the steps needed to get it recorded are the verification(s) required. Thats why the system exists. Believe me you don't want to start giving your local County or your condo/timeshare Associations the right to "challenge" deeds. That would be a can of worms and a windfall for lawyers that would make the class action industry look small.

I'll soften one part of my answer. If there was forgery involved and the OP can prove it than he may in fact be able to get a corrected deed without his name on it filed and recorded. As soon as he does the resort can no longer go after him for the fees. But until HE gets the official deed altered the resort is completely within their rights to seek payment from all owners of record. That isn't going to change as the laws of property rights (and obligations) go back thousands of years to simple common law.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Not, if the forgery was blatantly obvious to a layman, as many in such a situation would be. I doubt if his mother went to much trouble to duplicate the way he signed his name under circumstances like this. The recorded deed itself would show the forged signature if it deviates substantially from the actual signature.

A timeshare resort has hundreds and maybe thousands of individual owners and each has a deed at a deeded type property. When the copy of the officially recorded deed shows up on the fax machine or in the mail how is anyone at the resort supposed to know if the signatures are valid/true or not? They, by law, rely on the recording stamp on the document which certifies that the deed met the requirements and is valid. End of story. If there was "obvious" faults but they got by the local recording agency that agency may have to correct it - and issue a new deed which would then again be forwarded to the resort and then they would be obligated to accept the new name(s) as the legal owner(s). If the notary made an error they would have to fix it - again a new deed would be issued. But in no case is it the responsibility or obligation of the resort to look beyond the recorders official stamp to accept that the named parties are indeed the legal owners. Period. End of case. Going after the resort for an alleged faulty or forged deed is a waste of time and money. They are in the clear.

[Beaglemom3 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Beaglemom3]

No deed I've ever heard of, regardless of jurisdiction, can be recorded without notarized signatures. .

Exactly ! This was the point of my first post.

(You learn this in first year law school and you need not go to law school to know this).

Late edit: If the signatures aren't guaranteed, whether forgery comes into play or not, the contract should be null & void. It is the transfer company or HOA to ensure that all legal requirements have been met before closing the deal.


Also, you might want to invoke the term "Attorney General" of whatever state your Mother resided in during your communications with these people.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Since there is apparently a signature of the purported ''owner'' I presume that it is on some type of credit instrument. I have yet to see a state where a grantee (the person receiving the property) signs the deed. It is the grantor (the seller) who does so.

I would not think that the mother would have the agency to bind the son under these circumstances, and at best it would be treated as a gift. The recipient did not know of the gift for many years and when he discovered it, he rejected it.

No, a resort does not have to study every deed that comes their way for discrepancies, but when a specific situation is pointed out to them and the forgery is obvious on its face, they cannot just look the other way and pretend they don't know it. If the forgery is indeed not even close to a valid signatture, then they have no excuse for pursuing this ''owner'' and may well have committed an improper act by submitting it to a credit agency. If it is a situation where it would take an expert to determine if it is genuine, well that is another matter entirely.

[Beaglemom3 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Beaglemom3]

If this were the case, then I could go out and buy property and place people's names on the deed that I did not like. Then I could default on the loans and force them to pay the balance to save their credit. Or, as in my example, I could take out credit in other peoples names, run up the tab and they would be responsible for the bill. Somehow I don't believe this would work.

This man did not apply for or accept ownership of this "gift." They have no right to collect on it and he has no obligation to pay for it. It will not be an enforcable debt at the very least. I do not believe that it will be that hard to prove in a court of law that he did not sign the documents.

He will not have to file suit against his mother. He will only need to prove he did not sign, had no knowledge of and did not accept the "gift." His issue is not with his mother so much as it is proving he did not sign the contract and/or deed. The entity holding the debt may be able to file charges against his mother for forgery but, they'll also have to answer for why the accepted the signature in the first place. Something I doubt very will be interested in doing.

This sums it up ! Well stated.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

To make matters worse, this is a resort with very high m/f's due to the thugs at Fairfield not playing fair with the HOA's after they were tossed out as management due to their mismanagement. A sad situation. Last I heard, the local Fairfield corporation that only covers these resorts had filed bankruptcy to get out of their obligations.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

To make matters worse, this is a resort with very high m/f's due to the thugs at Fairfield not playing fair with the HOA's after they were tossed out as management due to their mismanagement. A sad situation. Last I heard, the local Fairfield corporation that only covers these resorts had filed bankruptcy to get out of their obligations.

Yes. We haven't heard any updates on that in awhile (courts move slowly, etc). In the meantime I'll bet the resort isn't getting any better (it isn't).

What a shame that the HOA Board, Wyndham and whoever else is involved all seem to feel they are the only view that counts and that they are 100% right and entitled to full satisfaction. Nothing less will do. It is a recipe for eventual disaster (if it isn't one already) that most likely the littlest guy - the individual owners - will bear the brunt of. Even now it would be so much better if all sides sat down, swallowed their pride and past differences and simply did something to get this mess resolved and the resort the money/work it desperately needs. I've heard the cries that "the other side" won't do it (ie enter into binding arbitration) but that is still trying to place blame and be the "winner" rather than actually working out what would be a painful compromise for all sides. Meanwhile the owners suffer, the resorts suffers, the lawyers collect seemingly never ending fees and, in the end, whatever decisions are reached are likely to be based on a compromise no side will be completely satisfied with. The exact outcome a serious negotiated settlement talk would likely yield. But at a cost of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, lost years of potential for the resort and suffering for the owners.

Maybe they are too far down the road or the wounds are too deep on both sides to do anything else now but this sure is a situation to stay out of if you aren't already an unfortunate caught up in it as an owner there. If it does play out to the end my bets, unfortunately, are on the corporate deep pockets right or wrong. Again it will be the owners that take it on the chin and are likely to be wishing that their representatives had taken a step back and worked out a deal even if it is far from 100% of they think they have coming. Time will tell and conjecture by either side is just that. It's easy to think you hold the cards and will be the victor until the court goes another way and you're stuck with that decision. Right now they still have a chance to at least have a say in the final outcome. In my opinion they are shortsighted - putting all the eggs in a basket with no bottom - to place it all in the courts hands.

[rwf4444 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close rwf4444]

beaglemom--just a quick note hello--i have written both the attorney general in ny state and the one in sc. but i waited to do that until after i got the "final" word from the management company. i am skeptical they would have done anything differently had they known ahead that was a potential course of action for me and i doubt anything will come from the one ive just taken---but i know i cant sit idly by---so we'll see...