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Originally posted by BobbyO1967
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CHEATauWorld
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... What are you talking about? This is not a vacation strategy at all... you appear to be very confused.
CHEATauWorld -
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... and what constitutes "proper guidance"? ... your opinion?Originally posted by BobbyO1967 View Post
You can't be serious...
CHEATauWorld.ca
CRELOGIXclassaction.infoComment
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Woops- somehow I answered this post on a different one...?Originally posted by BobbyO1967 View Post
I have no idea what you have imagined up in your mind... but with that statement, you have just shown very clearly that you have no idea what this project is
... it is not intended to be a vacation strategy- that is why we are not selling it as one.
CHEATauWorld.ca
Crelogix Acceptance Class Action
Inn of the Rockies TakeoverComment
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Selling---most likely a con job. I never believe what a salesman says.Comment
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As a casual observer who happened to click on this topic, I'd say walk away. Verbal beatings from one who endorses the project do not bode well.No one can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. - T. Bankhead
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Having spent 17 years working in the financial services industry, this is not an investment I would make using RRSPs. The general practice of investing is to have your bedrock insurance plans in place and then move to progressively more aggressive/riskier investments as your disposable income increases. The idea is that if your riskier investments go sideways, it's not going to ruin your retirement because it's "extra" money that you're prepared to "lose". I don't know how old you are but you need to consider your personal risk tolerance relative to your retirement time frame.Originally posted by YEGOiler
It's not us you should be asking if this is a good deal, you should be talking with your financial advisor on how this would fit in your retirement plan.Comment
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Let's see . . .
I've done close to 10,000 timeshare and vacation club presentations . . .
I currently own multiple weeks . . .
I helped sell out 3 resorts . . .
I was the podium speaker when Regency Travel was in Mystic . . .
I bought and sold units today . . .
I think that qualifies me to provide appropriate guidance./
Right in the opening statement, we read "rent and manage". Let me make a blanket statement based on 11 years of experience: if you buy an investment property and you hire somebody or you rent and manage, good. If a developer buys a property, asks you for money and he/she will rent and manage, bad.
I think that's clear enough, don't you??Comment
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Please provide the location of the first page you are referring to- everywhere I look the closest thing to that is "own and manage".
Please note that the project is for fractional ownership- something, by your own account, you have no previous experience in.
So, I would respectfully suggest that perhaps you are not qualified to advise on this matter.
Regards,
La VelleComment
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I can see how your background would make you feel confident in your position. The problem however is that you are making assumptions about this project without having all of the facts- or you are deliberately misrepresenting the facts.Originally posted by BobbyO1967
A developer is not buying nor has a developer purchased a property and a developer is not going to purchase a property. That is false premise #1.
We are dealing with a property that has been foreclosed on by lenders. Lenders have ownership of the property and are willing to sell fractional ownership of the property.
Nobody is being asked for money for a developer to manage and rent a property. That is false premise #2.
So, respectfully, again- this project is different than what you understand it to be, and your background does not include fractional ownership of a resort property.
If you would like to know the details of the project so that you can develop a more informed opinion, we would welcome your questions etc.
Kind Regards,
La VelleComment
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Let's see if we can help Lavelle out
Ok, so it went from bad to worse.
The Lender is now the developer or, at best, the lender has brought in someone else to to the developing for them. In any event, YEGoiler is not the developer.
Lavelle, why you don't you be honest and just start calling her "the mark"??
Now, looks go back to real estate class (I hold licenses in two states - in both, time shares are considered to be fractional ownership and have HOA's which are fractional ownership boards but who's counting??) . . .
For all intents and purposes, there are two ways to make money on a property:
1. "Rent it out"
2. Sell it down the road
Our friend was pitched both of these concepts with one little minor clause - she doesn't really own anything. She gets out when they want her to.
Lavelle says that it's not about renting (even though she said that).
Therefore, if it can't be sold when she wants to and it's not going to be rented and it's not a vacation strategy - Lavelle says not to think of it that way even though "you can travel the world") just what is she getting out of this deal??
Even better, this thing, what ever it is, isn't deeded. It's practically a license spinning off a right to use contract linked up to some trading organization or another that goes unnamed.
We are almost at the point where filing an investigation request in the home state of this thing seems to be in order.
I cannot stand when people like LaVelle give our industry a bad name.Comment
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Our decision
After doing our research on this venture, both my wife and I have decided to pass on this opportunity. We read the very helpful replies from members of this board, listened to what the developer had to say on the phone and read the postings from Lavelle and have decided with our accountant that this not a legitimate project. The developer has the same smug and bully tactics towards our accountant that they are using on this forum. They do not give him any information other than to say that this deal that involved registered retirement saving, fractional real estate and non-arms length mortgage was too complex for him to understand. He holds a MBA, is a CA and has over 30 years in the accounting business at major banks. He tells us to pass and stay away from the deal. My wife also found a interesting posting on the internet that talks about the true value of the units and it makes this look more like a timeshare than an investment. We are going to copy the full post below for you to make up your own mind. My wife also does not like bully’s, and this group of people come off as immature like a school yard bully. We thank you for your help saving a large part of our retirement money.
Discussion Forums
http://forums.canadianbusiness.com/thread.jspa?threadID=21039&tstart=0
"Chateau World Resort members are being duped by Andre Muran and his new partners Phil Lutzko, Scott Brayshaw, Vern Mazur, Andrea Spiess and La Velle Goodwin into buying a sham RRSP investment and stands to rob millions from innocent victims
An email was sent by this group stating that they could buy back the bankrupt Chateau World Resort at a discounted price of $294, 941 for each of 18 townhouse units for a total of $5, 308, 941. Each member is being asked for $17, 231.83 to be used to purchase a 3/52 interest in a townhome unit using their RRSP. They have an appraisal that looks more or less legitimate, the same appraisal Andre Muran used to dupe CIBC, Axcess Capital and other lenders out of millions of dollars on the exact same resort units that will show that units are actually worth more than $400, 000
Speaking to a Canmore real estate agent, it looks like the units are worth no more than $160, 000 today as there is a unit listed at that price right now and it is not selling. The agent informed me that the unit is worth no more than $150, 000 assuming that there is someone that will buy units that are in such a state of disrepair.
The MLS listing of the unit that is for sale is MLS: C3452201 and you can go to www.mls.ca to see the listing. The realtor has informed me that all the units at the Banff Gate Resort are exactly the same, so they should be all appraised at the same value. The realtor has also informed me that there are other listings that have expired and did not sell at prices ranging from $140, 000 to 244, 000
Coincidence, I do not think so.
Assuming that each unit is worth $160, 000 and the website for this new group states that they are going to buy the units at $294, 941.18, they (Andre Muran and his new partners Phil Lutzko, Scott Brayshaw, Vern Mazur, Andrea Spiess, La Velle Goodwin) stand to make $2, 428, 941.00 profit. Over two million dollars plus the fees they will charge the new owners every year of almost $1000.
The RRSP component of the deal is a illegal scam that has been created by Andre Muran, Phil Lutzko, Scott Brayshaw, Vern Mazur and Andrea Spiess. According to my realtor contact, tens of millions of dollars of resort real estate was sold to unknowing investors at other properties using investors RRSP money. The other properties, Chateau Canmore, Sunset Resorts Canmore and The Grande Rockies Resort Canmore are currently under investigation by tax authorities and any investor that put money into the scheme is subject to an audit and repayment of any assessed taxes including large penalties.
The scheme involves a strawman structure where one uses their RRSP money to purchase units at the resort. Andre Muran has done similar dealing using “Vacations for Charity” and another property in Canmore called Chateau Canmore. According to their website Phil Lutzko, Scott Brayshaw, Vern Mazur, Andrea Spiess and La Velle Goodwin are also managing these properties right now.
Investors at the other properties have either been audited or will be in the future and have had to pay very large penalties. This is their modus operandi, promise one thing and deliver nothing of the kind. This was the plan to steal more money from the Chateau World Resort members from the beginning. All deals involving these people are based in a systematic deceptions, it would be hard to find more deception and fraud than the way these companies operate.
This group is promoting this as fractional ownership of the Banff Gate Resort. According to the National Resort Developers Association, ARDA…. this is what is called a deeded timeshare. Rights are shared with over thirty other owners for each unit and over 300 owners at the property. One can assume that there are no rights and investors are at the whim of the management company that is controlled by the scam group that will constantly increase yearly fees and create new assessments so they can milk more funds from the duped investors.
After scamming and cheating Chateau World members once, the same group of crooks are trying to scam the same victims again, this time leaving the members personally liable for a resort that is in such disrepair that even the bank could not panic sell these same units for over a hundred thousand less than what they want you to pay.
Their addiction to scamming has messed up many thousands of people, don’t fall victim to them again.
In a further desperate attempt to hide the truth about the pending sham that is being aimed at the already victimized members, Andrea Spiess, La Velle Goodwin, Phil Lutzko, Scott Brayshaw, Vern Mazur and Andre Muran have begun damage control. Websites created and maintained by this group such as www.CHEATau World.ca and the www.innoftherockiesspaandlodge.com have been quickly changed to hide the phony $400, 000 plus appraisals. Any negative comments that do not agree with this bunch have been deleted with many other sections that would shed light on this questionable deal have been erased
A Canmore real estate agent has also uncovered another major discrepancy. La Velle Goodwin stated in a previous comment, that the reason for the discrepancy between the real and current price for a unit of $165, 000 (she admits that this is accurate) and the $300, 000 price they want the members to now pay, is a result of the units being
“part of an operating resort, that is operating as a business- taking in rental income, maintains a staff that cleans the pool, maintains and operated a spa, cleans the units, cleans the parking lot, provides little soaps and shampoos... etc.?”
That is her exact words. More lies from this group. The truth though is the “taking of rental income” comes from the 80/20 rental management fee that is charged by the maintenance company, that conveniently this group also owns. It is a separate fee in addition to the purchase price, charged every year. As for the “staff that cleans the pool, maintains and operated a spa, cleans the units, cleans the parking lot, provides little soaps and shampoos... etc.?” that comes from the maintenance fee that each owner will have to pay each year. That fee is never included in the purchase price of either a timeshare or property. That fee is currently set at $1, 263.79/year
On the www.innoftherockiesspaandlodge.com website this group claims that you are only responsible for $964.48/year. Upon further investigation and reading the fine print, it is assumed that the management company can rent out a week and you will not have to pay for the maintenance fee for that third week. This is deceptive wording to hide the exorbitant fees being charged to the owners and how they are stealing money every year through overcharges. Your real obligation is a minimum of $1, 263.79/year plus any future increases. A quick calculation of 17 owners per unit, multiplied by the $1, 263.79 each owner pays in maintenance fees every year, means that over $21, 484 per unit of fees is collected annually. This is a total rip off and assumes that over $1790/month is needed for just maintenance fees for each unit. That is not including the 20% management fee and minimum $100 exchange membership and $150 exchange fee for each vacation exchange.
Permit me to summarize, after charging the members double the real appraised value to purchase the units, new buyers are then responsible for maintenance fees that are three to four times the industry norm and finally then asked to fork over 20% of any rental revenue and hundreds of dollars in exchange fees.
A conservative estimate of the total fees each owner is responsible for over the 15 years of ownership is over $23, 400 ( this is in addition to the $17, 231 purchase price) for a total cost of ownership of at least $40, 687 per owner. OUCH!
I have nothing to hide. Information that I have posted about this sham investment is available on the internet for anyone to find and independently verify. My calculations are based on the actual numbers that are found on the www.innoftherockiesspaandlodge.com website. I invite you to do your own calculations, the truth about this group must be exposed "Comment
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YEGOiler,
I spotted that real estate listing on realtor.ca today, $161,700 for 52 weeks at this resort, except that the property looks a little run down, not a good investment. Glad that you and your wife have decided to pass on this scam.
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetail...Key=-478263047Comment
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Originally posted by BobbyO1967 View Post
Please visit CHEATauWorld.ca I would be interested to know your opinion of the work that has been done there.
Also- we are in Canada and our laws are different than US laws.
Again- if you would like to develop an accurate understanding of what we are doing, you are welcome to contact us and we will happily take the time to help you understand it. Then, feel free to post all of the opinions you have about it- in the meantime, you are posting about something you know nothing about.
Do let me know what you think of CHEATauWorld.ca I am interested to know.Comment
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It sure doesn't look very appealing. The units look like something from the 1950's.Originally posted by ealJohnComment
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