The Timeshare Tourniquet

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Ok so Im new here... I dont get it

Some one here advised JLB to buy a vacation home, and sell his timeshares? So he did that. He bought a vacation home and sold his timeshares. Whats the problem?? except it doesnt sound like the advice I expect on a timeshare owners forum

I cant tell if he is taking issue with those of us that say its difficult to impossible to sell a timeshare (I sold mine, you can sell yours too)
Or if he recognizes the difficulty and really wants to help the rest of us

If its the latter, stop asking questions, and share the secrets of your success. If its the former....well thats just wrong. Some timeshares are difficult to get sold. And there is no easy answer, at least not until the HOAs each establish their own sales and rental departments

And by the way I bought my timeshares for the specific purpose of using them as my vacation home and if I keep buying to use as my full time residence. Ill become a snowbird and use my home here in Paradise (sunny SW Florida) in the winter....and as far as an exit strategy...I expect to die owning them. They will become the problem of the various HOAs

Ron (?): As I tried to explain for the newer folks in #81, my involvement in timesharing has changed over the last 25 years, from being an addicted daily forum timeshare lover, to similar to the guy who devised the phrase The Timeshare Trap, which I, too, did not pay much attention to or give credence to 15 or so years ago when it came about.

I am now simply because we are in that trap and one should not have to expend the amount of energy I have the last three years to reduce the financial bleeding the unwanted timeshares bring about. The difference between now and 15 years ago is that a very significant portion of timeshare owners feel trapped and so many thousands are trying to unload at the same time that there is no value in many of them . . . the exact number being cause for speculation. For sure, timeshares in areas that have been acknowledged to be overbuilt are being devalued the most.

No, no one advised me to buy a house where we like to exchange to, but we did, so we no longer have any need for our six weeks. Every owner wanting out has their own reason why. I successfully unloaded our first round of truly undesirable timeshares many years ago, but things have changed. This time around it is proving to be very difficult. I am doing what I can to slow the bleeding.

If I believed timesharing was not a good concept, it would mean that I wasted day after day after day for 15 years of forums, and Sightings, and trading power tests, and such underground stuff as working with others to divulge such secrets as exchange company coding and trying to document and discover the disappearance of exchange company inventory. I purchased two of the weeks we now own because they were repeatedly at the top of trading power tests 15 years ago, and that was the best measure of evaluating what one should own at that time.

There are many battles that have been fought by timeshare owners. The difference in the one I am fighting now is that it is not to help figure out to better use timeshares, but to figure out how to stop using them altogether. As one might expect, that puts me at odds with those on this forum who are at a place with their timeshare that my wife and I were at for 22 years, and my belief that finding an exit strategy is the single most important factor in the success and survival of the industry does not set well with them.

There is stuff that goes on behind the scenes on Internet forums, and some of that is that people who annoy the regulars get reported to the management, If the reports are perceived to be numerous, that poster is disciplined. Normally it is for trolling, badgering other posters, personal criticism, even the extreme measure of cyber-stalking and interfering with the personal lives of strangers on the Internet, which has happened to a few of us here.

I am not doing any of those things; I am just annoying to some. I started this thread on the Economics Board so those interested in this issue would have one place to work on it together, much like many of us have worked on other things over the years.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

I think I was at the end of the editing time limit, so I started a new post for you Ron.

As to your personal situation, there was a man who was an Urban Legend to many of us, "Ride with Ray" Harper:

http://www.timeshareforums.com/forum.../t-112410.html

He and his wife Darlene grew up where I grew up, and I considered them to be good friends and one of my timeshare mentors.

Not unlike what you are saying, Ray and Darlene lived in/on Cape Cod 26 weeks a year and timeshared mostly in Florida 26 weeks a year. Sorta Snowbird timesharing on steroids, an extreme version of what we were doing. Toward the end, the end for Ray was that he could not keep track of them. I am not quite to that point, but I believe that those who have been loyal to the industry deserve the respect of a dignified exit.

Ever since my college days I have been one to take on issues that benefit others, and that has not always been viewed well by the others. As I often say, "Time is the best friend of the truth." Like the resort I have reported on in the Fine Kettle of Fish, sometimes it takes that one person, that annoying grain of sand, to bring about a pearl of change.
- - - - - -
As for my purpose, as you can see, different folks have different takes on it, for whatever reason they do. Not that I have any need to defend or explain myself to my detractors, but I spend far less time on internet timeshare forums than I once did. I understand that I am like that pesky little mutt that grabs ahold of your pants cuff. I won't do anyone any harm, but . . .

Hopefully this one place will stay for those who want to help. That seems reasonable.
- - - - - -
Have a happy day everyone and pause between the beer and brats to remember why we celebrate it.

[tonyg Goomba & Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tonyg]

And it goes on and on and on...

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

A reply from one of our resorts:

To respond to this question - we do not have a section in the newsletter for owners wishing to advertise their week. Unfortunately so many owners are looking to give away their units at this time, the newsletter would just be overwhelmed with 'sellers' and no buyers. We are looking at alternative programs which may give owners an avenue to relinquish weeks but it is taking some time. I will make sure you are on a list of owners wishing to get rid of their weeks and contact you should I have further details.

As if on cue, the person that sent me this message, the GM at the resort where I have put our three weeks in their rental pool, now says that they had no stays for our Week 10, when the Stay History on the owners' website showed there to be two stays totaling $347.50. Of course, also as if on cue, the owners' website is not accessible right now, and she doesn't know why that is, but saying she agrees it is down.

We've owned there for 22 years and I had weeks in their previous rental pool before a change of management. It's now managed by the Alderwood Group, and I have posted somethings about their exchange program before.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

As for the conjecture, "That's what you get for buying at a crappy resort," or something similar to that, when we bought at the Fine Kettle of Fish, it was rated Gold Crown with RCI, all three weeks are red weeks, and it was part of the much-heralded Escapes! mini-system. To the average person, it would appear to have been a place you would like to own at, a safe place. Just now, in the current issue of Endless Vacation, it is featured in a member's review on Page 70.

Not many resorts have all that going for them, and, again, the average person would never imagine that you could not even give them away.

As I have mentioned before, the other resort we own at was at the top, actually #1, on several trading power tests, even the same week in the tests, so by that standard of informed owners, it would appear to have been a good place to own. After all, 15 years ago that's how those on these forums went about evaluating resorts.

[SallyHoover Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close SallyHoover]

Hi JLB,
I think this thread started off well and is important to show that you can buy decent (but not great) weeks at a nice resort that you will still have problems when you don't want it anymore especially when rental costs are less than MF's.

It would be better if you only commented on it when something new and/or at most once or twice a week. By rehashing some of the same info and commenting on your own posts multiple times a week, it will make it hard for someone looking for info and help to find anything useful.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Hi JLB,
I think this thread started off well and is important to show that you can buy decent (but not great) weeks at a nice resort that you will still have problems when you don't want it anymore especially when rental costs are less than MF's.

It would be better if you only commented on it when something new and/or at most once or twice a week. By rehashing some of the same info and commenting on your own posts multiple times a week, it will make it hard for someone looking for info and help to find anything useful.

Thanks.

I agree, and would recommend removing any posts that do not serve the purpose of providing information to the target audience, those coming to this site for the purpose of getting rid of a timeshare when all else has failed.

Some of my updates do not exactly serve that purpose, but are intended to show how difficult it is for an owner to tread water once they are done with their timeshares.

I also understand how annoying it is to those who love their timeshares as we once did, but the exit strategy is a problem for all owners, even those who do not feel directly affected by it. I try not to go to their "in love with timesharing" threads, except to add helpful information, like in ex ops. I try at least.

[Hobbitess Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Hobbitess]

To the average person, it would appear to have been a place you would like to own at, a safe place.

I think in one sense there is no "safe place" to own a Timeshare at. It is extremely rare that people can sell their TS for anything like what they bought it for, and standard to "sell" a TS for nothing, or for the cost of transfer fees. Vacations are an indulgence, and indulgences tend to be even more prone to fits of fashion than semi-necessitites like cars or clothes (clothes are clearly a necessity in a culture that shuns nakedness; the "semi" part is that, while clothes may be necessary, fashionable clothes are not). Places that remain popular long-term, like Orlando, are perhaps even more prone to the fashionable fit thing -- it's overbuilt, meaning newer resorts or resorts that have new and nifty features are those that draw the crowds, and which resort that may be changes over time.

It's possible DVC will kick this trend and remain popular enough that DVC ownerships always retain some resale value, but as the DVC ownerships age the price is going to have to go down, and they have gone down some already. An ownership with only five or ten years left on it isn't going to draw the price that one with 20 years would. And while I would guess there are proportionately fewer DVC owners feeling trapped by their ownership than there are in any other system, I've still run across unhappy DVC owners who'd expected to be able to sell easily and at a profit instead of a loss, since that was the situation when they bought in.

Owning a TS carries risk. Renting points or weeks from someone else carries risk. Owning a vacation home carries risk. The key is, not to find someplace "safe" -- safety doesn't exist. The key is to get a good grasp of the various risks and go with the set of risks you're most comfortable with.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

The key is to get a good grasp of the various risks and go with the set of risks you're most comfortable with.

Which, any more, would be to follow the advice of Dave Ramsey. (Since the risks are so much different than the examples given).

(Sorry if this does not advance the purpose of this thread).

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

There have been those that have argued that the HOAs are not set up to handle deedbacks, etc., that they were formed for the purpose of an ongoing, growing business and to protect all the owners.

That argument is just plain outdated.

It does not matter that the developer/seller is no longer in the picture. Owners wanting out, want out, and the only entity, the one that has to deal with that problem is the HOA. No one foresaw a total collapse of the resale market, a contracting owner base, so no one foresaw the problems that would be confronting the HOAs.

Time for them to get real, and deal with what they have to deal with. Time to reinvent the purposes of the HOAs. Time to be creative.

It should be fairly plain . . . how do you stay profitable with fewer owners and/or fewer units? How do you re-organize the resort to include only those who want to be included? It's not an impossible situation.

The savior of timesharing may just be the ability to do that, and duplicate it at other resorts.

[tonyg Goomba & Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tonyg]

... how do you stay profitable with fewer owners and/or fewer units? How do you re-organize the resort to include only those who want to be included? It's not an impossible situation.
....

It seems it was at Shawnee.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

If a resort can take a quiet title action, or in other ways take ownership of developer weeks, or foreclosures, or deedbacks, they would seem to have the power to reorganize a resort, say by downsizing, reassigning units and weeks for owners wishing to continue, and convert some units to full ownership or rentals, and still stay profitable. Maybe even more so than the expense of litigation.

If you can buy a week from an Association, you should be able to give a week to an association.

The places that have passed required deedback laws allow for a reasonable transfer fee to the resort.

It is all very do-able and makes sense.

Not taking one back for free, or with the owner paying a fee, really says something about the (lack of) value of the resort or week.

Afraid of a stampede? Just put an annual limit on it. Make it an orderly downsizing.

Just to do some math, at the Fine Kettle of Fish Resort, the units are such that no changes would need to be made to them physically in order for one to be converted to rentals, or just sold off.

There are 15 of the original units, the ones that come with year-round amenity rights. 750 possible owners. Let's say 50 want out. Convert one unit to full ownership. Charge a $500 Transfer fee. That would be $25,000 from transfer fees, and $150,000 m/l from selling the unit. $175,000, minus recording fees and secretarial labor v. $32500/year in unpaid fees, plus litigation costs.

Which method would be better protecting the remaining owners?

The board member who called me said the resale company mentioned, and mentioned again in the subsequent mailings, was for weeks held by the association, not owners wanting out, so are they not already engaged in some of this?

[rapmarks Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close rapmarks]

when we stayed at the Rushes in Door County, they were offered a three year package for off season weeks. You paid 3 X maintenance fee and you could book a week a year for three years, or three weeks in one year,etc. the association got some money and you got extra time at the resort. your suggestion is sound. My resort in Lake of the Ozarks could have probably sold whole ownerships, right on the Lake, for a goodly amount, and solved a lot of the off season week problems that way.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

when we stayed at the Rushes in Door County, they were offered a three year package for off season weeks. You paid 3 X maintenance fee and you could book a week a year for three years, or three weeks in one year,etc. the association got some money and you got extra time at the resort. your suggestion is sound. My resort in Lake of the Ozarks could have probably sold whole ownerships, right on the Lake, for a goodly amount, and solved a lot of the off season week problems that way.

Thanks.

Yes, there are reasonable, sensible, amenable ways to deal with this. Win, win, win ways.

I came back to add that beachfront, lakefront, golf course type resorts could be more easily converted than your typical, sprawling Orlando-type resorts. Branson Yacht Club was Rock Lane Resort for many years before the Heckman's got into timesharing. SW FL resorts are surrounded by condo buildings. We have friends that had a little lakefront resort on Table Rock, and condo-ed it out just before the recession. Branson timeshares are surrounded by condo buildings at Thousand Hills, Fall Creek, etc. SBV has several areas of condos that are almost exactly like the Golf Villas.

[ace2000 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ace2000]

The board member who called me said the resale company mentioned, and mentioned again in the subsequent mailings, was for weeks held by the association, not owners wanting out, so are they not already engaged in some of this?

Some are already for sale. I've seen several of these out there. Converted timeshare units?

http://springfield.craigslist.org/reb/4440464234.html