I have no idea what the topic is

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

If only about 200 non-points weeks are availible there, then they must be rather difficult to find offered for sale.

Are you saying that ALL of the Lodge Alley Inn weeks in the points program have already been deeded to points members? That would certainly explain why they would be trying to sell points deeded to another resort, and why they would then already be in the mode of in effect re-selling Lodge Alley Inn, just with the sleight of hand of deeding the points somewhere else.

All of them are deeded points. I know because the numbers are in the annual report. The fixed weeks are not offered by the sales teams. You need to buy those on the resale market or from Pinnacle Vacations.

Bluegreen does sell points as points. Your criticism of that sales tactic is valid. But, it isn't really impacting owner usage yet. It could in the future.

Bluegreen really does sell the Vacation Club usage across all resorts.

Also, I think that Bluegreen cross sells points from other resorts so that they can offer a customer the number of points they want as opposed to the number of points they have at that specific resort.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

2) They can buy points that are deeded at Lodge Alley Inn. Every contract for Bluegreen points specifies the underlying deed supporting the points. Owners have a priority reservation period for their deeded week that trumps anyone else from 12-11 months in advance of check in. That is equivalent to the rights you get owning a fixed week.

Boca:

The way you describe BG's deed system sound similiar to FF's. When you say the point specifies the underlying deed, is it specific a week, a unit or like FF's UDI it may group a usuage of a set of unit in all 52 weeks?

Thanks

Jya-Ning

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Boca:

The way you describe BG's deed system sound similiar to FF's. When you say the point specifies the underlying deed, is it specific a week, a unit or like FF's UDI it may group a usuage of a set of unit in all 52 weeks?

Thanks

Jya-Ning

Most BG points look like converted fixed weeks rather than UDI points. In fact, the account structure and naming convention for point accounting is based on a fixed week structure.

However, Bluegreen does have what they call UDI points as well. But, UDI points are most often used to offer smaller point packages to customers. In other words, let's say that an owner wants 8000 points. They can be deeded at The Fountains in Orlando via UDI points that are deeded in a specific unit, but on F, Sa, Sun during high red season.

There is nothing preventing BG from having higher or lower point values based on combining deeds on a UDI contract.

This bothers some people. But, it doesn't bother me. This only impacts resale value if the Club needs to liquidate assets and return deeds to owners. That's not likely to happen because even if Bluegreen goes out of business, the club can continue by selling out the management contract to another developer.

In fact, if that ever happens, they can sell out to me and we won't have to change the acronym it will still be BVC, but it will be Boca's Vacation Club. LOL.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Are you saying that ALL of the Lodge Alley Inn weeks in the points program have already been deeded to points members? That would certainly explain why they would be trying to sell points deeded to another resort, and why they would then already be in the mode of in effect re-selling Lodge Alley Inn, just with the sleight of hand of deeding the points somewhere else.

Carolinian:

In FF's case, all the new resort they build is all call UDI point, and it is all beck by deed. It maybe the whole building. So if the whole building is 20 units, each requires 10k per week avg. there is total 10M points. And you can buy like 20k from these 10M. In theory, FF will put aside a certain % to the trust.

If FF buy a existing resorts, that they can add more units, they will offer existing fix week owner a chance to convert to FSP point system. The owner still owns the deed. Just that each year they assign the use of the week to a Trust which then give the owner points to use. Then any new unit probably will be put together to create a big UDI pool and sell to new owners.

Same as BG, the owner at home resort can make reservation earlier, then at 10 month, it opens to all FF owner. FF's converted fix week owner can only get his/er own week in earily reservation time, but UDI owner can reverve any the UDI unit at that time.

The big difference compare to a week owner is that if you don't take action to reserve, it is gone. The usuage is taken by the trust. So they can try to take advantage of that week.

Actually, most of the time, I thought the point owner should be the one suspect they are the one be cheated, not the other way around.

If big resorts run away from RCI, I believe the small one will follow, in the same area, a lot of manage people know each other and do exchange info, beside, it is now internet golden age, most knowledge is free from internet, to say there is no way to know what is happening means the HOA does not really do their job.

Jya-Ning

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Fairfield can still sell out their UDI in one location and still go on selling points there, deeding them to a UDI at another location. Same potential problem! When you get a lot more people who have toured a particular resort and want to go there than it can possibly accomodate, members are going to get squeezed out of what they thought they bought.

I wonder if when the UDI at hot FF locations like Alexandria are sold out if they will close up shop on sales or if they will go on selling points there and deed them elsewhere. My guess would be the latter.

As to HOA's, the common problem is that most HOA boards tend to be populated by people who own to use at the resort rather than exchangers. Many of them do not keep up with exchanging issues, and many don't care that much about them. You might be surprised by the comments I have heard from a couple of HOA presidents concerning their general attitude to exchanging and their lack of appreciation for the economic contributions to the resort that would end if there were a significant disruption in exchaging.
I look at what is really out there rather than what ought to be.

Carolinian:

In FF's case, all the new resort they build is all call UDI point, and it is all beck by deed. It maybe the whole building. So if the whole building is 20 units, each requires 10k per week avg. there is total 10M points. And you can buy like 20k from these 10M. In theory, FF will put aside a certain % to the trust.

If FF buy a existing resorts, that they can add more units, they will offer existing fix week owner a chance to convert to FSP point system. The owner still owns the deed. Just that each year they assign the use of the week to a Trust which then give the owner points to use. Then any new unit probably will be put together to create a big UDI pool and sell to new owners.

Same as BG, the owner at home resort can make reservation earlier, then at 10 month, it opens to all FF owner. FF's converted fix week owner can only get his/er own week in earily reservation time, but UDI owner can reverve any the UDI unit at that time.

The big difference compare to a week owner is that if you don't take action to reserve, it is gone. The usuage is taken by the trust. So they can try to take advantage of that week.

Actually, most of the time, I thought the point owner should be the one suspect they are the one be cheated, not the other way around.

If big resorts run away from RCI, I believe the small one will follow, in the same area, a lot of manage people know each other and do exchange info, beside, it is now internet golden age, most knowledge is free from internet, to say there is no way to know what is happening means the HOA does not really do their job.

Jya-Ning

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Carolinian,

You are pressing on a red herring issue. If a person attends a sales presentation at Lodge Alley Inn and they end up buying points deeded at Christmas Mountain Village, then they made a mistake if they intend to only visit Lodge Alley Inn and want to be guaranteed a specific week every year.

If a buyer wants to own at Lodge Alley Inn, they can buy a fixed week there. And, even if they buy points deeded at Lodge Alley Inn, they get the same benefit of being able to reserve their deeded week as any fixed week owner.

The bottom line is that the timeshare plan at Lodge Alley Inn is a superset of a fixed week system. It provides more options and more potential benefits.

For the most part, Bluegreen sells their program as a vacation club for use at any of the resorts. And, in the case of Lodge Alley Inn, there are plenty of other Bluegreen resorts within driving distance of Charleston.

Contrast that with the Platinum week program at the Maui Marriott. How many owners there can get July 4 week in 2007. Almost none.

Go ahead, pick any week on any check in day for Summer 2007 at Lodge Alley Inn. I'll bet you a DAE exchange that I can get it.

Then, let's make an equivalent bet for you and any of your ownerships to get any summer week on any check in day at a resort of equal or less demand via ANY exchange company. You won't be able to do it due to the limitations of weeks deposits.

That's one of the main differences between a point system and a week system.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

As to HOA's, the common problem is that most HOA boards tend to be populated by people who own to use at the resort rather than exchangers. Many of them do not keep up with exchanging issues, and many don't care that much about them. You might be surprised by the comments I have heard from a couple of HOA presidents concerning their general attitude to exchanging and their lack of appreciation for the economic contributions to the resort that would end if there were a significant disruption in exchaging.

That you can not help. Just like there are sometimes someone may buy from retail and has no intention or can not figure out what it is until too late.


The question is, assume RCI does try to dump all the exchanges into rent cheap, or into fair value, what will happen? As you say, there are people bought for use. And even in FF, a good % people just use FF's internal system to do exchange because the availability is guarantee at given time. It actually help in planning. And there are people just rent out their week. So the exchange to outside company is never a majority. And their source will never be constant. I doubt any business can survive on that. The general assumption I believe at this moment is there are enough people that will continue support them, but I doubt it will be true. People do exchange once, if can not get what they want, they will be out. So RCI is only killing itself. And what will happen to the TS as whole? If 50% or more is used by owner, then TS will still be there with or without RCI.

I doubt if it really can be call dump.

Jya-Ning

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Actually, what is at stake?

Assume RCI has now in the process of messing a perfect exchange model. What is really at stake?

IMHO

For RCI, it will loss its share, and whole bussiness.

For individual, not much, just loss a exchange option. If today's market is support by exchange, then yes, it may loss its value. But this is assume no other exchange company will gladly picking up the slack. Now assume that is the case, then how much? Most of the owners that will be in trouble is the one with off-season, which a lot of ebay auction at this moment has none actually bid on, so they could not loss more than that.

For HOA that can only survive if RCI exchange is the only reason, then they may loss a certain percent of owners that mainly bought them for exchange only. That means, the prime week owner will have to pay more for their fair share, or they can sell to another company, and get more (assume off season owner has default already) or get a reality check.

As tugger, I believe most of the time the advice is to buy what you will use, if you follow what you say there will be very min. impact.

If RCI can really create a rent market using TS, then what happen?

Jya-Ning

[BoardGirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BoardGirl]

Carolinian,

I don't know what presentation they gave you @ LAI, but, Bluegreen stresses THE CLUB. Long weekend here, use bonus time there, blah de blah, versus pushing the resort you are at or another far away. I have seen the pages of what they can sell "today" and it's various resorts. They talk up the appeal of The Network.

Their premise is that "a point is a point" and I think that's true for most BGVC owners. Some might demand an LAI deed while others can't live without owning at Big Cedar or CMV or whatever. For me, a point is a point because I don't tend to do the same things, go the same places, have the same kinda time year after year. A specific deeded week holds no appeal to me, but, points is custom made for someone like me who can thriftily blow them offseason.

So if BG dismantles and for some fool reason they don't call up Boca to take over, I still have deeds. Sure, THEN I might care that I have February in Pidgeon Forge, but I won't lose sleep over it now.

[taffy19 Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close taffy19]

This is a fascinating thread to read even from Hawaii. It is amazing how divided the views are between Boca and Carolian and some of the others but I like to read your views as both have valid points.

We have our own views but I know that it doesn't make sense to most of the people here, who like exchanging or making good use of their timeshare weeks and/or points. We like using our timeshares and prefer a fixed unit and fixed time over floating units and time. We may be wrong in your opinion but that is how we feel.

We went to the Marriott presentation/owner update in Maui and that is what they offer now at the MOC and the fixed weeks/fixed time condos are selling like hot cakes so other people are thinking the same way too. They must be new timeshare buyers, I guess or people that would like to own a piece of Hawaii even if it is only one week. Real estate values have gone through the roof here but how long will it last, I keep asking myself?

We met a fellow at the elevator tonight, who owns a week at the Hilton on the Island of Hawaii but could not get a reservation there so he had to stay at our little timeshare here instead. He paid a lot more for his week then we did for our two weeks here. I don't call that a good exchange but he was happy to stay in one of the Islands of Hawaii but it was trading down, as far as I am concerned as our units are smaller or less luxurious than his but we have the view as it is on the ocean! To me location and view is more important than a big, luxurious resort anywhere without a view. Fixed units give you this advantage. JMHO.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Emmy,

I respect and appreciate Carolinian's views of timesharing. It took me a while, but I think I finally do understand his main assertions.

This is a good thread because the different points of view force a discussion and debate of the issues from all sides. It allows the readers to see the pros and cons of a system or approach so that they can better understand how to timeshare in the way most helpful to them.

[BoardGirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BoardGirl]

Variety is the spice!

Yes, the interesting thing is to see everyone's views. And everyone is playing nice!

Carolinian has taught me what the whole [famous debate whose name I won't mention] is about. His trumpeting of DAE has been a campaign I completely support.

I hadn't considered Bluegreen to be anything like RCI (facts don't change that I love BG and am not thrilled with RCI, but will use them to my Weeks advantage), but I always appreciate Boca's digging into the guts of the docs and stats and endless minutae I don't feel like digesting.

J-Ning has helped to shed more light on Fairfield, which has made me figure that I don't need a foot in that system!

Maybe in several years we'll get into a "let's go here EVERY YEAR" but there is too much of the world yet to see and I don't plan to repeat for a long time. Maybe I don't use "the best way" or the absolutely cheapest way or stay in the very finest resorts, but I don't care about that. It's economical without taking all my strength and cleverness to make happen.

It's amazing to learn all the crap that goes on under the covers that the rank and file owner/exchanger never finds out. Gosh, I coulda been one of them!

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

It is not a red herring issue. Ask the upset people who bought Peppertree points at OBBC. It happened at OBBC immediately because the resort was already mostly sold out as weeks. The process simply takes longer with a resort that still has more weeks availbile as they keep selling and selling and selling enticing people interested in a certain location and not building new inventory in that location. Many people buy timeshare to go to a certain location. On the OBX, at the resorts I am familiar with around 70% of owners do not even participate in exchange programs because they bought to use. From talking with the manager at another Charleston area resort (Isle of Palms Beach Club), I am told that relatively few of their members particpate in exchanging, and they also primarily own to use, so that is obviously a big thing in the Charleston area, too. If it hasn't already, common sense tells you that it WILL eventually catch up to those who buy because they want to use at LAI, too. What too many timesharers who are caught up in exchanging forget is how many timesharers are NOT in it for exchange.

If only about 200 people have fixed weeks at LAI, and the developer will not sell any more, finding a fixed week there would seem to be a very difficult thing to do. That is not an option that a novice buyer would be able to pick up on.

I know that when they gave me a sales sheet on the tour, I did not see ANY of their points packages that matched LAI point values. Do they still have undeeded weeks at LAI?

You test is obviously based on the difference in the way Points and Weeks exchanges and deposits are made. Points is like ff air tickets. When the window opens it is all there, if you act quickly, but when it is gone it is gone and will not be replenished. Weeks deposits, however, come in over time. By setting a timeframe before the window opens in a points setup, you know you can get what you want if you are there first in line.

Carolinian,

You are pressing on a red herring issue. If a person attends a sales presentation at Lodge Alley Inn and they end up buying points deeded at Christmas Mountain Village, then they made a mistake if they intend to only visit Lodge Alley Inn and want to be guaranteed a specific week every year.

If a buyer wants to own at Lodge Alley Inn, they can buy a fixed week there. And, even if they buy points deeded at Lodge Alley Inn, they get the same benefit of being able to reserve their deeded week as any fixed week owner.

The bottom line is that the timeshare plan at Lodge Alley Inn is a superset of a fixed week system. It provides more options and more potential benefits.

For the most part, Bluegreen sells their program as a vacation club for use at any of the resorts. And, in the case of Lodge Alley Inn, there are plenty of other Bluegreen resorts within driving distance of Charleston.

Contrast that with the Platinum week program at the Maui Marriott. How many owners there can get July 4 week in 2007. Almost none.

Go ahead, pick any week on any check in day for Summer 2007 at Lodge Alley Inn. I'll bet you a DAE exchange that I can get it.

Then, let's make an equivalent bet for you and any of your ownerships to get any summer week on any check in day at a resort of equal or less demand via ANY exchange company. You won't be able to do it due to the limitations of weeks deposits.

That's one of the main differences between a point system and a week system.

[ArtsieAng Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close ArtsieAng]

Emmy,

We have our own views but I know that it doesn't make sense to most of the people here, who like exchanging or making good use of their timeshare weeks and/or points. We like using our timeshares and prefer a fixed unit and fixed time over floating units and time. We may be wrong in your opinion but that is how we feel.

I think there are some clear advantages to fixed weeks. If you own a premium fixed week, and don't want to use or rent it, you can still exchange it through an exchange company for another week.

Regardless of the type of system, most people are trying to get a prime week. They are competing with each other. Nothing wrong with owning outright one of those weeks.....

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

The problem is that if 30% of owners bail out, the remaining owners have to pick up the slack of running the resort, and m/f's go up substantially. That will make some others decide the cost is too great and bail out too. This process can keep feeding on itself as bailouts and rising m/f's keep feeding each other, sending the resort into a death spiral. That happened, triggered by other reasons, at the former Spanish River Resort in Florida. Off season bailouts have the potential to trigger it at many resorts. Owners of off season weeks simultaneously find out that they can rent cheaper, and that they don't get what they used to on exchange. Those are powerful incentives RCI is creating for bailouts.

That you can not help. Just like there are sometimes someone may buy from retail and has no intention or can not figure out what it is until too late.


The question is, assume RCI does try to dump all the exchanges into rent cheap, or into fair value, what will happen? As you say, there are people bought for use. And even in FF, a good % people just use FF's internal system to do exchange because the availability is guarantee at given time. It actually help in planning. And there are people just rent out their week. So the exchange to outside company is never a majority. And their source will never be constant. I doubt any business can survive on that. The general assumption I believe at this moment is there are enough people that will continue support them, but I doubt it will be true. People do exchange once, if can not get what they want, they will be out. So RCI is only killing itself. And what will happen to the TS as whole? If 50% or more is used by owner, then TS will still be there with or without RCI.

I doubt if it really can be call dump.

Jya-Ning