I have no idea what the topic is

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Carolinian,

On another thread, you posted that some airline was offering a ton of tickets for 1 euro each. Tell me again how this isn't the same type of dumping of inventory onto the market that you claim RCI is doing with cheap rentals?

I recall your conclusion being that the dumping will kill timesharing. Why wouldn't this kill the German airline market?

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

The big difference

This is a limited sale, open for a few days for purchase with travel over a couple of months. A time limited sale of this nature is not going to have a permanent competitive impact because once the sale is over, the price is gone. RCI's cheap rentals are on an ongoing basis, and this is what makes them a big threat to the ownership/exchange model of timesharing.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

No, that's where you are wrong. Cheap rentals will stop when people stop depositing them. Lawsuits and normal market behavior will prevent it from continuing unfettered. It can't last forever. Timesharing will continue booming.

I am most familiar with the Bluegreen Vacation Club. Last year, the Bluegreen Vacation Club grew 30% and added almost 30,000 new owners.

Bluegreen offers cheap rentals to owners at below the annual maintenance fee for bonus time and rents units at market rate to the general public as well. Nobody is complaining about it.

It just happens to be that Bluegreen is a point system. But, that is not relevant to the discussion. Bluegreen's rental program is good even if all Bluegreen did was offer fixed/floating weeks.

The bottom line is that customers don't need RCI and can move to many alternatives very easily.

[bigfrank Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close bigfrank]

Bluegreen offers cheap rentals to owners at below the annual maintenance fee for bonus time and rents units at market rate to the general public as well. Nobody is complaining about it.

No one should complain about it since they are owners of there home resort company and owners should get the perks. RCI is an exchange company, We are suppose to be exchanging not renting.

This is so It's not funny. Can the moderator of this forum please split this thread into another forum so we can keep this at the OP topic and continue this dialog else where. If you need help doing so let me know and I will split it.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Frank,

Great. Got you into the debate. Go ahead and split the thread into another forum. But, it is an important topic, so I'll continue. Put it into the Timeshare Economics forum if you like. This is related to the macro economic fundamentals of timesharing.... Dumping inventory that is.... and it's long term impact on the industry. So, it wouldn't be a bad place to put it.

Let's examine your assertion that Bluegreen allowing rentals is different than RCI allowing rentals. I say that because when you look at the details, you will see that the situation is identical.

My claim is best illustrated in an example that just happened to me this week.

I had a confirmed reservation for a renter at a Bluegreen resort for April 14-21. Bluegreen cancelled the reservation thinking that I authorized it even though I didn't. Having a renter trying to check into a popular resort for an Easter week is a pretty tough to pull off if you don't already have the reservation. Needless to say, I had to scramble.

The resort was completely booked. There was no inventory for points reservations. That had been the case for months. And, there wasn't any bonus time available either. So, I couldn't get the week using the Bluegreen Vacation Club.

So, I go to Bluegreen Rentals. They have 5 of the 7 days available. The only days they don't have available are April 14 and April 20.

So, I then go to Travelocity. Travelocity has April 14 available. So, all I need is April 20 and I am all set.

Then, I get a call from Bluegreen. They find me a whole week and my renter is satisfied.

What this illustrates is the fact that Bluegreen, just like ALL timesharing companies, has different inventory for various purposes. Some is allocated to reservations or exchanges. Other inventory is converted to a sell off list (i.e. bonus time). Moreover, other inventory is set aside for the general public.

If I replace the word Bluegreen with RCI, I could be complaining that I couldn't book a points reservation during the prime Easter week even though the general public could through Bluegreen Rentals and Travelocity.

I didn't complain because it was obvious to me that the inventory was different and Bluegreen came through for me in the end anyway. In essence, I trust that Bluegreen is managing inventory properly.

The bottom line is that if you don't trust the management company then you are suspicious of any of their actions even if they are benign. I believe that RCI suffers from this distinction whereas Bluegreen is too new and too small to establish that type of negative reputation yet.

So, my conclusion is that Bluegreen offering rentals to the general public is no diffferent than RCI doing the same. After all, where did all of that inventory come from that ended up in Travelocity and Bluegreen Rentals? Did it come from points inventory, developer inventory, points inventory that was traded for hotels or airline tickets? It's identical to RCI.

Are any of these rentals hurting the Bluegreen Vacation Club? Absolutely not. It is strengthening it. Owners get the benefit of bonus time that is cheaper than maintenance fees. Non-owners can sample the resorts without buying. And Bluegreen just finished growing 30% last year in Vacation Club points.

This type of organization, whether it be a points system or weeks system is the future of timesharing. Notice the glaring absense of an exchange company in this picture. They are there as the icing on the cake. And, there are No exchange fees or Housekeeping fees unless you do choose a third party exchange company.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Boca:
This is off the topic, but I am very interesting in this off topic, so I will chip in.

No idea about BG system.

What 30% compose of? Did BG purchased other resorts and converted them to BG Club? The converted owner? Or just new owners that purchased a new BG Club?

I notice there is a differnce in BG model and RCI model. BG owner get cheaper rental then general public. If a RCI member can get Outbank from RCI in rent as same as BG offer as example, but when he checks all the RCI outlet rental side, he sees the cost is double or triple, then he will probably will praise it instead of feel he been robbed.

Jya-Ning

[bigfrank Administrator Find all posts View Profile Close bigfrank]

Jim I rather give the moderators a chance to play with the controls. Hint put a check in the right hand corner of the posts you want to move. Then scroll to the bottom of the thread and in the moderation box click on move posts. follow the directions from there.

BTW Jim I do not agree with you Since RCI is an exchange company and BG is a Timeshare company for owners.

[BoardGirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BoardGirl]

I'm with Frank: Bluegreen and RCI are completely different. Bluegreen OWNS inventory, RCI does not. RCI is an "accomodations broker" while Bluegreen owns, builds, sells and manages accomodations.

Not the same thing at all.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Bluegreen is a developer, and therefore owns and has a right to rent unsold inventory that it owns. It has not taken it from the actual owner as a third party broker with an implied trust to use for exchange purposes like RCI does.

Bluegreen is also likely to be constraining about dumping rentals to the general public at below m/f prices. To do so would impair their ability to sell that type of inventory. Who is going to buy the cow when they can get the milk for pennies? RCI which is not in the timeshare sales business itself, does not have that constraint, and they can dump on those who are either selling or like HOA's have an interest in their members continuing to own rather than dumping the weeks for cheaper rentals.

Developer/HOA rentals are an entirely different animal than exchange company rentals.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Actually, if you think again, BG and RCI is very similar. Once BG sold its inventory to Boca or any new owner, they no longer own that property. The owners owns.

I don't know BG, so I will use FF.

Each year, my unit is assigned to FF in exchange of FF point (or FF money) which I can use to make reservation or to spend on whatever FF provide. I can use it to reserve the units that owner assign the user right to FF, and use it, rent it out, give to a guest, exchange. In this case FF has no different than RCI, once they sell the unit, they just serve as an excahnge company.

FF also has rental program. But not like BG, Owner does not get discount from that program.

In theory, FF don't own any unit except those they are developing and still in selling process.

RCI does not own any unit, but they get inventories from all different developers, and as owner we don't own these units too.

If I use my FF points to purchase anything except the FF resort interval gave up by FF owners, FF has to find a way to get cash out of it. The only way is to rent out a FF units that owned by an owner but assigned to them. In other word, I give permission to allow FF to rent a certain invertval my point can get.

Something in RCI.

Will FF steals something from the owner side and makes profit for its own company? Or they just rent out their part of units that give by them from developers? Or they exchange some devloper's unit to a unit owned by owner because it can rent higher? That is exact the same as question on RCI.

I believe BG works similar, so BG is just another RCI

Jya-Ning

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Cheap rentals will stop when people stop depositing them. Lawsuits and normal market behavior will prevent it from continuing unfettered.

I see that you see to acknowledge that the lawsuits can put a stop to RCI's unconscionable looting of its exchange deposits for rental purposes.

People will quit depositing when exchangers have all bailed out of the off season weeks, leaving them for the HOA's or developers to try to resell to non-exchangers because RCI would have by then killed the exchange market for the off-season by their cutthroat competition from cheap rentals. Those who own to use in off season will remain, and the HOA's and developers will have to try to find similar new owners for the weeks abandoned by exchangers. Until they do, the m/f's will skyrocket for the mid and high season owners to take up the slack in the resort budget, and may spiral into mass bailouts there too, if they do high enough.

One thing you seem to avoid, Boca, is looking at this from the standpoint of resort/HOA economics.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Your comparision is for RCI Points. It does NOT follow for RCI Weeks.

Since RCI Points was first rolled out (it was called GPN then), I have criticized the Points Partner program as ''polluting the timeshare exchange system with non-timeshare goods and services'' precisely because of it leading to rentals.
When I first pointed out that it would have to lead to rentals, some of the points supporters on the old TUG board blasted me and said that was only speculation and they wanted to wait for the ''facts''. I said it was common sense that this was what RCI intended. We have seen who was right.

RCI has absolutely no business in renting out weeks entrusted to RCI Weeks for exchange purposes. This is another reason that Weeks and Points should be totally seperated from each other. Weeks will thrive once we can pluck this Points parasite off of its back.

Actually, if you think again, BG and RCI is very similar. Once BG sold its inventory to Boca or any new owner, they no longer own that property. The owners owns.

I don't know BG, so I will use FF.

Each year, my unit is assigned to FF in exchange of FF point (or FF money) which I can use to make reservation or to spend on whatever FF provide. I can use it to reserve the units that owner assign the user right to FF, and use it, rent it out, give to a guest, exchange. In this case FF has no different than RCI, once they sell the unit, they just serve as an excahnge company.

FF also has rental program. But not like BG, Owner does not get discount from that program.

In theory, FF don't own any unit except those they are developing and still in selling process.

RCI does not own any unit, but they get inventories from all different developers, and as owner we don't own these units too.

If I use my FF points to purchase anything except the FF resort interval gave up by FF owners, FF has to find a way to get cash out of it. The only way is to rent out a FF units that owned by an owner but assigned to them. In other word, I give permission to allow FF to rent a certain invertval my point can get.

Something in RCI.

Will FF steals something from the owner side and makes profit for its own company? Or they just rent out their part of units that give by them from developers? Or they exchange some devloper's unit to a unit owned by owner because it can rent higher? That is exact the same as question on RCI.

I believe BG works similar, so BG is just another RCI

Jya-Ning

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I'm with Frank: Bluegreen and RCI are completely different. Bluegreen OWNS inventory, RCI does not. RCI is an "accomodations broker" while Bluegreen owns, builds, sells and manages accomodations.

Not the same thing at all.

I agree that in general RCI and Bluegreen are different types of companies. I am not debating that point.

What I am saying is that RCI Points and the Bluegreen Vacation Club are more alike than they are different. In the area of inventory management and control, they are almost identical.

In the areas that counts the most, they are the same.

Let me enumerate them for clarity:

1) RCI Points gets its inventory by fixed week owners converting and committing their weeks to points for 3 years at a time. The Bluegreen Vacation Club gets its inventory from Bluegreen or fixed week owners who sign over deeds to the Bluegreen Vacation Club Trust. Bluegreen does NOT own the deeds. They only manage the club as a managing entity through a separate company.

2) Both have a reservation system managed by either RCI or Bluegreen which are NOT associated with the ownership of the underlying property. This reservation system is responsible for accounting for all of the inventory owned by RCI Points or the Bluegreen Vacation Club.

3) Both entities have a way to exchange weeks with RCI weeks and there are costs associated with those transactions. Both systems allow partial week stays.

4) Both have a points for deposit program for bringing in 3rd party weeks. RCI Points calls it Points for Deposit. Bluegreen calls it AIM.

5) Both entities have sell off inventory that they offer to owners at discounted rates. RCI calls it Last Call and Extra Vacations, Bluegreen calls it Bonus Time.

6) Both have programs to use points for various travel items. RCI Points calls it Points Partners. Bluegreen calls it Traveler Plus. This method for points usage creates an inventory imbalance that needs to be addressed by renting additional units. Yes, Bluegreen must do this, too.

7) Both companies have sister organizations that develop resorts and sell timeshares. RCI has Fairfield and Trendwest, which are being rebranded to Wyndham. The Bluegreen Vacation Club, inc. does NOT develop property. It is the Trustee for the deeds and hires the managing entity. The managing entity hired by the Trust to manage the Bluegreen Vacation Club is Bluegreen Resorts Management, Inc. Bluegreen Corporation is the developer of the timeshare interests and is not the same corporate entity as the Trust.

8) Both companies use 3rd parties to rent weeks to the general public. Bluegreen uses Travelocity. RCI uses several as listed in other threads on this site.

9) Both companies rent weeks directly to the general public on their own. Again, those sites are listed for RCI elsewhere on this site. Bluegreen has Bluegreen Rentals.

Here is where they are different:

1) Bluegreen Resorts Management also provides hospitality services to manage the resorts. RCI Points does not.

2) Bluegreen does not charge for reservation fees for points reservations. Most of the time there are no housekeeping or cancellation fees. There are no guest certificate fees. The fee structures are different, but the funcitons provided are the same.

3) RCI does not develop the resorts in RCI Points. Bluegreen does most of the time, but not always. Bluegreen has many resorts such as Fox Run that are not developed or managed by Bluegreen Corporation.

4) Bluegreen allows owners to rent their reservations. RCI Points does not.

So, when the direct comparisons are made between the two entities, the pre-ponderance of evidence suggests that they are indeed more alike than different. In fact, I would say that they pass the duck test. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and acts like a duck, it is a duck.

So why isn't there the same outcry about Bluegreen rental activities as there is with RCI?

First, RCI does have a confused business model. Nobody can tell if they are a weeks exchange, a points exchange or a rental company. The Bluegreen Vacation Club is above all else a point system with every program intended to reinforce and enhance that type of ownership. Bluegreen owners aren't confused about what they are doing because everything appears to be making their ownerships more valuable.

Second, RCI has a checkered past and they appear to be invoking a milk the cow strategy with very little growth, but increasing profits. That is classic behavior for a company that is focused solely on extracting the most profit possible as the main business objective. Bluegreen is in growth mode experiencing 30% annual growth. They are motivated to keep customers happy so they buy more.

Third, RCI has an installed base of customers that don't want change. Bluegreen does as well. But, those customers are left alone whereas RCI is in their face with a publised crossover grid. Mind you, Bluegreen has the same type of grid in the points table. And RCI weeks owners don't have unfettered access to Bluegreen weeks. So, even though RCI Points and Bluegreen have pretty much the same interface into RCI weeks, RCI weeks owners don't have the same outrage with it as they do the generic crossover grid.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Your comparision is for RCI Points. It does NOT follow for RCI Weeks.

Actually, today developers deposit into RCI their developing units. It is in both week and point. Just like old days. Except the old days is only on week side. Also, you can exchange week to curise. So it is the same. Just in week system, you only get one token per week deposit. In point system, you get different ratio of tokens. Also, week exists before Internet, and few people know where RCI put their rental to. Nowadays, people can see rental from internet.

When you say it is not allowed in RCI weeks, none can prove it is not been don by that before. However, because it has week number and unit number, people assume it is impossible to do that.

Today, all my exchange from RCI says that the unit will only be assigned when I get to the resort. I will assume it is the same as rent. So there is no way to trace what their rental source is, therefore, you will always think they are renting the exchange weeks.

If HOA/developer don't trust RCI, they will pull theit affliation to other exchange company. If they just wait till all their off season weeks owner bail out and none willing to bail them out, that is their issue.

By the way, assume the exchange will prevent bail out of off season week owner basically admit the week trade is trade up not a fair trade. How can there any prime season owner want to deposit their week for exchange?

Jya-Ning

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I see that you see to acknowledge that the lawsuits can put a stop to RCI's unconscionable looting of its exchange deposits for rental purposes.

Yes, I agree that lawsuits can change behavior of companies. When I was an executive in a public company, we did everything we could to avoid shareholder lawsuits and any lawsuit in general.

As far as your descriptor for RCI's rental activities, we will see if they are indeed unconscionable or not. I think something fishy is going on. I am not yet willing to draw the same conclusions you are.

Companies do care about Public Relations. Lawsuits are not good for PR. So, companies will avoid them whether or not they are frivolous.

My personal opinion is that the only winners in lawsuits are the lawyers. Lawsuits are like civil wars. Everyone experiences casualties.