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Originally posted by Carolinian
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ROFLMAO. That's the funniest post I've read today. -
Simple. Many of my long weekend or extended long weekend trips are road trips, where I am moving from place to place and really just need a bed for the night before moving on. Also, many are to places where t/s is just not practical. My last extended longweekend involved a day in Frankfurt, a day in Berlin, and two days in Danzig/Gdansk. Before that it was three days in Mallorca, but I wanted to be in the old town part of Palma, and there are no timeshares there. For such trips, hotels simply work better. Also they are easier to arrange since these trips tend to be planned only a few weeks out.
Originally posted by Jya-NingComment
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I guess YOU didn't read my post, because you missed a significatn part of it:Originally posted by Carolinian
The only difference is that the the Bid price in RCI's market is not as dynamic as the market in a hotly traded stock. But if you've ever had any experience trading illiquid securities, such as real estate limited partnerships, the market is very similar. When we inherited a real estate LP one time, the market Bid price was static for several years.
Pricens constantly change in the stock market only for actively traded securities. When a market is thin or illiquid, prices are static. As anyone who has waited months on an ongoing search can attest, the market for trading weeks in any exchange company is not very liquid.
Static values are completely normal in an illiquid market.“Maybe you shouldn't dress like that.”
“This is a blouse and skirt. I don't know what you're talking about.”
“You shouldn't wear that body.”Comment
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Maybe he just didn't completely understand it.Originally posted by T. R. OglodyteComment
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Actually, weeks purist theory predicts that you wouldn't stay in a timeshare for short stays if your life depended on it. Your strict adherence to keeping weeks systems pure will never allow you to admit that a weekend stay in a points timeshare could be any good.Originally posted by CarolinianComment
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Timeshare trading is active enough that values are simply NOT static, unless they are arbitrarily frozen as in a points system.
''not as dynamic''????? try Not Dynamic AT ALL! Points is no more like a stock market than a Soviet 5 Year Plan is.
Originally posted by T. R. OglodyteComment
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No this weak excuse did not merit any response. Look at the sweeping (and incorrect) assertions in the paragraphs just before and just after that one.Originally posted by BocaBum99Comment
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It is really amusing to watch the points advocates twist and turn, trying to take a static system that absolutely cannot and does not react to market forces of supply and demand, like a points system, and try to claim it has any market characteristics whatsoever. What a joke!
I challenged the points folks to come up with one single RCI Points resort where the points numbers have EVER changed. The silence is still deafening!
'Nuf said!Comment
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Your problem when you start pontificating on economics is that you greatly overstate your point. For example if you had argued that points had a few of the attributes of a non-convertible currency, I would have agreed with you.Originally posted by BocaBum99
Instead, you take the completely unsupportable position that Points IS a currency! When I post the definition of currency from the respected Black's Law Dictionary, you strut around like your definitions carry more weight than theirs.
Boca, please come back down to earth so that these issues can be discussed rationally.
BTW, I hope you saw Jason's post in response to your shrill post on TUG, before Dani the Censor deleted it. He is a good example of the Weeks folks who just lurk or have moved to other forums rather than tangle with the little self righteous points clique on TUG. It does appear that some of that clique has moved to this forum. Unfortunately, when some of the average timesharers not so happy with rentals or points finally start speaking up on TUG, the moderator/censors there seem to pounce on the thread. There was a very good one developing on rentals a few months ago, where people really came from off the sidelines and started speaking up, but the moderators quickly shut it down.Comment
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This is a breakthrough. You are acknowledging that points have attributes of currencies. That has been my assertion all along. That point systems behave like currrency systems. The context of the discussion, if you recall, was barter systems vs. currency systems. And, the argument that many proffered was that currency systems over time have proven to be more effective in trading than barter systems. You will not concede to that point even though it is settled economic theory to be true. You won't even acknowledege that it MAY be true. Instead, you bring out a dictionary that provides 1 definition of currency to prove your point. But, you don't acknowledge that words and concepts often times have multiple definitions. So, when others post those other defintions, you stick to your argument that Black's dictionary is the only definition that is correct.
You make claims that point systems are like communism because exchange values are "rigged and frozen" and compare it to command and control economies. That isn't inflamatory? It isn't okay to describe a system of beliefs in a theory called weeks purist theory, but it is okay to call a point system communist with all of the negative connotations that system has and do it not with complete and reasoned logic, but a sound bite?
Moreover, when I or others explain the attributes of those economic theories that you use in your arguments like "supply and demand" and "market based" and "price" and when their descriptions of those theories are presented, you position them as "pontificating" and too theoretical and not realistic or too broad probably because they do not support your positions. You often times simply dismiss well reasoned logic without providing any in return.
And probably most importantly, you refuse to acknowledge that point systems could be good for certain people. In fact, you position them as being inherently flawed due to "rent control" like values. Others don't agree with that position and provide logic that you simply ignore and make fun of yourself. I have NEVER seen you post that a point system could be good for certain people. Instead, you make blanket statements targeted at RCI that actually translate directly to those who use the point systems. "Looters and pillagers" you call them. You try to say that you intend those labels to be targeted toward RCI. But, its the points users who are making the trades. So, when you label the systems that they use in that way, you are labelling them as looters and pillagers. You don't expect them to come out and defend their positions?
I saw the post by Justin. It wasn't Jason. It was Justin. He had exactly 6 posts. So, I wouldn't say that he had been a prolithic poster and then suddenly became silent due to the arguing. If he stopped posting, his volume of posts wouldn't even be noticed. He could not have helped many people in his 6 posts. And, I read all 6 of his posts. He is a person who does not like RCI's business practices and hopes for them to fail as a business. He uses DAE and loves it. These are fine positions. We know they happen to be similar to yours as well. So that he posted in your defense is reasonable. If he doesn't think that the "belittling" that he described doesn't go both ways, then he really isn't being intellectually honest and he is biased due to his beliefs.
On the other hand, there is a very well know poster named PerryM who was an extremely prolithic poster who no longer posts. He provided a ton of good and useful tips for various timesharing enthusiasts and helped many people. He is no longer posting and in viewing his last posts, he left because of your constant name calling and unsubstantiated positions.
I will also acknowledge that my posts can be very acerbic and sometimes sarcastic. Most of the time, I don't pull my punches. I will attack bad logic so that the truth of a situation can shine through. And, that turns some people off. To those whom I have offended, I apologize. I even offered you an apology once that you failed to even acknowledge. When others have sent me private messages and said that they were not happy with something I posted, often times I will modify my posts to meet their needs.
So, as is always the case, hopefully this information helps to provide readers with a more complete understanding of the situation.
By the way, I have said many times and I will continue to say it. I respect your opinion and I think that you are more right than wrong on most of your assertions. The thing I admire the most is your conviction to your position. Also, I would say that you are the single most popular poster on these boards because if you look at the threads where you post, you have by far the highest page views and posts. This place would be boring without you. Please keep posting.
I believe that weeks exchanging is good and its simplicity is very appealing to many people. I believe that RCI has run a shady business and they have a serious conflict of interest in operating a rental business at the same time they are running a weeks exchange and a points exchange. I don't have a problem with the crossover grid. I think it is reasonable and improving every year. I think RCI renting spacebank weeks is a bad thing and if it is happening wrongfully that it should stop. I like the fact that the class action lawsuits may create a disincentive for RCI to cheat. I hope the facts of what they are doing comes out in public.
Going forward, if you and others want to dial down the "shrill rhetoric" I am all for that as long as it goes both ways and valid arguments on any system is acknowledged and points of disagreement are labelled as that, simply a difference of opinion. The only principle I won't change is my commitment to the truth.Comment
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Not twisting, just musing. So what? There are benefits to users when point values are fixed for long durations of time. Will you acknowledge, ignore or reject this assertion?Originally posted by Carolinian
A stock market type system for timeshares is the rental market. Prices definitely go up and down with supply and demand. And, all market participants can access any available inventory.
Would you then argue that a move to a rental market is a superior method of mapping supply and demand than a weeks based system? The logic of your argument would suggest that you believe that to be true, but your other posts suggest that you don't.
Will you acknowledge that one limitation of weeks systems is that not all market participants have access to all inventory? In other words that any depositer does not have access to any inventory if they want to pay more? I believe that to be a severe limitation to weeks based systems.Comment
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On the topic of censorship, I respect TUGs policies and posting rules. Dave M, Dani and the rest of the TUG moderator team, in my opinion, have done a good job at being consistent in their post edits. Whenever they have edited or deleted my posts, they did so according to the rules they have established and explained why they did it.Originally posted by Carolinian
I believe above all else, they want for people to be civil with each other. They don't want food fights. I believe that, more than anything else, drives their editing. Sometimes they may jump too soon due to anticipating problems that are likely to occur based on past experience with specific posters including both you and me.
On the specific edits that you mention. I made a smart a** remark that in my own way thought was a good play on words that was part sarcastic and part true from my point of view. I think I said something like, "Yeah, they are hiding from your week arguments." I couldn't resist the play on words and the multiple meanings.
That quote led to Justin coming into the discussion and saying that he was now lurking for the reasons that you said. And, he didn't like the "belittling" that it represents. So, you did have a proof point of your assertion.
Dani deleted the posts not because she had an agenda against Justin, you or the weeks position. She deleted it because she saw a thread that was on the verge of spinning out of control into a full blown food fight. I think she did the right thing.
This board was created in part so that it could be different than TUG in both content and philosophy toward free speech. I would encourage Justin to come here and offer up his ideas on timesharing. I think he will find that the people whom you characterize as the points team are actually more reasonable than you suggest and will acknowledge both the good and bad of any system or approach for timesharing.Comment
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And how many people have been driven off and dissuaded by your posts belittling, demeaing, and impugining others with whom you disagree??Originally posted by Carolinian
You have consistently called me a Points advocate and a Points shill, yet I own no points properites. If I were so sold on Points, don't you think I would have dropped out of Week. There have been times I have gotten so tired of your endless comments, droning and personal attacks that I have dropped out of these conversations for weeks or months at a time. Why does PerryM seldom participate in these discussions? What about Lee Boylan? John Cummings?
For you to impugn others for allegedly driving off other posters, Steve, is nothing but hypocrisy and arrogance of the highest order.“Maybe you shouldn't dress like that.”
“This is a blouse and skirt. I don't know what you're talking about.”
“You shouldn't wear that body.”Comment
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1. Having a few attributes of a non-convertible currency is a LONG way from BEING a currency! That is also a long way from being ''currency based''.
2. Your great ''knowledge'' of economics is exposed by your reference to ''command and control economies''. The term is actually ''command economy'' as anyone familiar with economics would know. Communism is but one example of a command economy. It is similar to the analogy with rent control. Do your claim that is inflamnatory as well?
3. You started this thread looking for an argument. Look at your first post. Look at who first started getting shrill. Maybe you got what you were looking for!
4. On most of your accusations, I suggest that you go look in a mirror! Yes, I can return the fire of the points crowd when they get shrill, but they are the ones who invariably start it.
5. I have posted many times that one cannot blame any individual who makes use of something that is out there, including the crossover grids, and that the only ones who should have any blame attached is the exchange company who set up the system. I have been saying that way back since the early days of GPN. I am surprised that you missed that.
6. I have said, also repeatedly, that those who like points systems should certainly be able to use them. Just don't have the points systems be leachs, bloodsucking the Weeks system. I have long advocated building a firewall between Points and Weeks and let each exchange only in their own system. Lets the points people take their own marbles and go play in their own game, instead of in a game where being able to take our Weeks marbles at will is part of the rules.
7. Actually PerryM is one of the little clique of points advocates on TUG who was most prone to name calling. He seems to be a favorite of the powers that be on TUG because even when they were deleting some much milder comments of others, they let his over the top name calling stand. He is one who had for some time shown up and posted a lot for a while and then disappeared for a while. When he is around, he is one of the first of the points clique to pile on anyone advocating a weeks position or attacking rentals by exchange companies. If I recall correctly, it seems the fact that he comes and goes has something to do with his employment.
8. As to recognizing that Points could be of benefit to some, heck I have been acknowleding since the very early days of GPN (the early name of RCI Points) that joining that system actually made a bit of weird sense to take advantage of the ability to loot Weeks through the crossover grids, although that could not last forever. So, Boca, you are simply wrong on that point. I have also been pointing out the groups which benefit from the way Points is rigged, such as those who own in overbuilt areas and at resorts still in developer sales, whose weeks are overpointed. That is not acknowledging that people in these groups benefit from Points?????
9. The best exchange on the ''currency'' issue was when one of the points group used the example of tokens at Chucky Cheese, saying they were currency because you could put them in a machine at Chucky Cheese to get items out. I observed that they were clearly not currency because if you took them down the street to the corner gas station and put them in the Pepsi machine and got a drink out, you could be arrested, if they would even work in the Pepsi machine. Having a few of the attributes of currency is NOT being currency, and this is even more so when thsoe attributes apply to a non-convertible currency.
10. BTW, I get much more enjoyment discussing European travel on the t/s boards than I do having to debate the litlle predictable group of points advocates, some of whom regularly use terms like ''seriously flawed weeks systems''.
Originally posted by BocaBum99Comment
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I really did not know what you own, but I could see the positions you forcefully advocate, and have since the early days of GPN (the early name of RCI Points, before it was merged with CRI Points of Europe). Given the positions you regularly argue, it is indeed not surprising that your posts have regularly been in a group that I would describe as points advocates. I can't ever recall using the term ''points shill''.
As to the piling on, which has been going on since I first started raising questions about GPN on the old TUG board, I found it interesting that a moderator on this board posted on Tips a couple of years ago that he had been recruited by a then leader of TUG to attack my posts. This activity by the points advocates was, then, hardly spontaneous.
As to ''belittling, demeaning, and impugning'' points advocates, it is the points crowd that generally starts that behavior, and yes, I do tend to give it back to them once they start.
I have already mentioned PerryM, one of the points crowd most inclined to name calling, and one is the regularly allowed to get away with it by the powers that be at TUG. LeeB is another one who has regularly piled on. Anytime a points vs. weeks thread starts it is very predictable who the members of the points adovcate clique who will jump in are. Now, John Cummings and I have agreed on some issues in the timeshare debates. He is much less inclined to the shrill diatribes of people like PerryM, LeeB, and JeffV or the ''RCI can do no wrong'' attitude. Also, I seem to recall on one of his more recent posts, that he indicated he was selling most or all of his timeshares and I suspect that is why we may be seeing less of him lately.
Many of these shouting matches are initiated by the points advocates who are also for the most part apologists for exchange company rentals, as was this one.
Some of them will use about any excuse to start an argument. The classic was when I recently posted an airfare sale in Europe under Travel Deals, and Boca responded by trying to turn it into a debate on some of the issues on RCI's machinations.
Originally posted by T. R. OglodyteComment
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