Weeks Purists Theory: does this ring true?

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

This is a post I made on TUG responding to a question another poster asked about why someone would not post favorably about a benefit to weeks owners that was once only available to points owners.

I believe it also explains the viscerally negative emotions that weeks owners have toward rentals. Even if inventory management for rentals was perfectly fair and perfectly managed, weeks purist would be against them. I propose a theory for why.

It also creates the underlying foundation for a class action law suit. Negative emotion without a solid foundation has a much higher chance of getting people to sign on to a class than does a rational case with solid evidence without emotion.

I'd like to see what happens in those cases just to see the reality of what is going on.


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Let me explain this paradox.

Weeks purists are against anything other than a week-for-week exchange between owners. They want a closed system so that non-owners cannot participate. They call this "exclusive" membership. They only tolerate rentals because there is nothing else to do with inventory about to expire (i.e. check in dates are near). They prefer that those rentals ONLY go to owners within the system. Renting to the general public eliminates the exclusivity of the club.

They want trading power formula to be hidden and managed by a benevolent organization who comes up with some type of "fair" trading power formula that enables exchange via something that attempts to mirror actual supply and demand of the underlying weeks within the system. That supply/demand curve is based on the supply provided by the depositers and the demand for locations to which those depositers wish to exchange. This supply and demand curve is skewed and different from the overall supply and demand for accommodations in the general rental market because timeshare developers are NOT incented to balance supply and demand of timeshare exchange. They only develop where there are ample supply of potential buyers. There is no penalty to developers who oversupply an exchange market since they get their money upfront at highly inflated prices. So, this skewing of the supply and demand curve for timeshare exchange vs. the general market for accommodations creates a huge opportunity for arbitrage..... for owners AND for renters.

It is very easy to arbitrage this type of system because the underlying supply and demand curve is not known to the new owner buying into the system. Those who study the supply and demand behavior of the system quickly learn which resorts in which locations have the highest trading power for the lowest overall price (upfront capital and MFs). Many less sophisticated owners in such a system get nothing for their deposits and many also have to settle for a trade down in value because they have not yet learned the system as well as the expert exchangers. So, at the end of the day, this battle is about who actually gets access to and can most effectively capitalize on those poor depositers who got nothing or traded down for their weeks.

In the prior paragraph, I mentioned that this situation creates a huge opportunity for arbitrage by owners and for renters. It is this "AND for renters" clause that is the central magnet for controversy for weeks purists. That is because in one fell swoop a non-owner can reach into this previously exclusive club and reap the benefits of arbitraging the system without having to own or spend years tracking exchanges on a daily basis to find where the good opportunities are. This angers weeks purists to a fervor that closely resembles fanaticism. Some label non-owners as "pillagers" and "thieves" and other negative terms. They do it in the name of purity, but in reality they are trying to prevent others from capitializing on their arbitrage opportunities. I have never understood the logic that if a non-owner acquires a week from prime week owner on the cheap that they are thieves. And yet if an owner does it, they are just smart timesharers? If one is a thief then both are thieves.

So, how does this relate to the paradox of weeks owners not jumping for joy over being afforded points benefits?

Point systems, a relatively new innovation in timesharing, represents the antithesis of what a weeks purist wants to see. It is attempting by design to eliminate as much arbitrage in the system as possible, upfront. This is a noble goal that makes it fairer for all owners. Points systems are gaining traction in the timesharing industry. The majority of new offerings are now point based as opposed to traditional weeks based exchange. Since free markets trend toward those systems that best match supply and demand, this should continue as currency based systems (i.e. point systems) of trade have proven to be far superior to barter systems (i.e. weeks systems).

Here are some of the reasons why weeks purist loathe point systems:

a) Points represents the elimination of much of the trade up opportunities once available in weeks exchange by assigning differential value for each week in the system. There are still arbitrage opportunities within point systems since no system is perfect. But, those opportunities are greatly reduced.

b) Point systems have found ways to aggregate their exchange power. This aggregation of exchange power have enabled them to negotiate very favorable deals with the weeks exchange companies to afford their members automatic access to top trading power without having to work for it. This really angers weeks purists because it neutralizes the edge they have developed over the years. Arbitrage opportunities in greater numbers are going to the point owners rather than the weeks experts.

c) Point systems have figured out how to turn timeshare accommodations into other travel products and nightly rather than weekly stays. By offering such products, it entitles the point systems to rent weeks to pay for those products. It doesn't matter if these rentals did represent a fair exchange. Weeks purists are against them because it allows many more methods for non-experts to arbitrage effectively the inherent weaknesses of the weeks exchange system.

So, at the end of the day, weeks purists see this as a battle between purity and non-purity. Purity leads to exclusive access to those arbitrage opportunities whereas non-purity of any kind opens the door to sharing the spoils.

Therefore, weeks purists do not want points benefits because they will then have to admit that there are good aspects of point systems that aren't available in pure weeks systems. If they did that, then they would be headed down the slippery slope of allowing others to capture value from their righteous province.

[BoardGirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BoardGirl]

...I'd like to see what happens in those cases just to see the reality of what is going on.

Oh yeah, I definitely want a peak under the hood!!

They want trading power formula to be hidden and managed by a benevolent organization who comes up with some type of "fair" trading power formula that enables exchange via something that attempts to mirror actual supply and demand of the underlying weeks within the system.

I'm not convinced that they WANT it hidden so much that they are willing to accept the secrets because "it's always been this way".

Many less sophisticated owners in such a system get nothing for their deposits and many also have to settle for a trade down in value because they have not yet learned the system as well as the expert exchangers. So, at the end of the day, this battle is about who actually gets access to and can most effectively capitalize on those poor depositers who got nothing or traded down for their weeks.

I disagree ONLY BECAUSE there are plenty of owners/exchangers that just want a nice vacation in a nice place and don't give a whop finkle about THE MOST POPULAR PLACE or THE HIGHEST RATED RESORT or THE MOST VALUABLE WEEK. To them, it's not a trade down because they get something of value to them, even if Tuggers don't approve. I am a good example of this. Cashiers, NC, Sheridan, IL, Clarkesville, GA. I took these trips on purpose. I wasn't engaged in any battle.

I will grant you that most people on these boards would not accept anything less than what they have their sights set on, so I do agree with the premise in a limited population. However, I think the exchanging population at large is far more flexible and does not feel taken advantage of. Whether they are purists or unaware of options, I don't know.

I also think part of the popularity of Points is not being locked into 7 day trips. THAT IS HUGE for the working families of the world. It's simply more practical for the user to dictate how long they will stay.

Regardless, as usual, you have crafted a provacative analysis that will most certainly get some intriguing posts going. At the very least, you have, a la that other BB, split weeks owners into 2 groups. LOL

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

1) The ''trade up'' system is Points, where trades up are designed in and are there all the time. Yes, in Weeks when the stars are in alignment and there are unusual factors in supply or demand, one might get a week that is better than normal. Is that really a trade up, when it is the market itself that set the price? In Points the numbers are frozen and rigged, and some, like overbuilt areas and resorts still in developer sales are systematically overpointed, and others like sold out resorts (a term with a sinister double meaning in RCI Points) and prime location resorts underpointed. Those with the built in trade-up position love points. Those whose resorts are getting hosed by the rigged and frozen numbers of points understandably don't like it.
The Points crowd always likes to trumpet the 45-day window exchanges in Weeks as ''trades up'' but inventory with a short shelf life in many businesses is distressed and giving this inventory a lower trade value is based on the realities of the market. A last minute deposit is given lower trade value just like a last minute exchange. One particular glaring area of Points trades up are those involving crossover trades into RCI Weeks for prime inventory using the fraudulent numbers of the crossover girds that systematically undervalue prime Weeks inventory so that it can be looted by Points members.

2) The publication of trading values has two inherent problems - a) a market based exchange system has to be able to constantly adjust values for everchanging supply and demand factors. A publication system that relies on a paper and ink format is not flexible enough to do that, and RCI Points relies on such a format. This problem could possibly be solved by going to an all electronic format which could adjust at meaningful intervals; and b) publication of numbers is a huge motivation for developers to politick the exchange company for higher numbers than they deserve, as has happened in RCI Points. The only way to prevent this is to also publish both the formula for establishing the numbers and all of the underlying data so that anyone could check to see that they are honestly set. Any system that publishes the final number but without the formula and underlying data is prone to integrity problems. RCI refuses to reveal such data saying it is proprietary.

3) Non-timeshare products do not add value to the system, as they are consistently overpriced. They help fuel the rentals, which is a threat to the ownership/exchange model of timesharing. Timesharing is better off without them, starting with the rip-off cruise exchanges.

4) When non-owners can get as good or better deal on timeshare inventory as owners, there will no longer be an incentive to own, and timesharing will collapse. If this occurs in any significant portion of the timeshare year at a resort, it is a big problem. That is true whether it is winter in Cape Cod or hurricane season in Florida. Who is going to buy the cow if the exchange companies are giving away the milk for pennies? That is the question that Boca seems to sidestep.

5) Many of the loudest advoates of points seem to own in overbuilt areas, where a market based system would not value their weeks that highly. In points, they have rigged overpointed numbers that are frozen in place, allowing them to get consistent trades up that a market based system would never allow. I guess I can understand why some of them advocate points so loudly. It is not because it is a fair system, as it is not. It is because it is a system that they can get more out of than they put in, and on a consistent basis.

6) Most of the commentary on renting directed at looting has blasted the exchange companies for looting exchange deposits to rent to put money into the exchange companies pocket, rather than calling the renters themselves looters. One cannot really blame individuals for taking advantage of whatever deal someone puts out there, but there is a lot of blame that exchange companies involved in these sleazy rentals richly deserve. They also deserve the lawsuits coming their way as a result of these practices.

[ebram Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ebram]

All points does is allow the developer to sell the 10 prime weeks to 30 people promising each the use of the ten prime weeks. Who gets the other 20 "RED" weeks. Sucker points owners.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

All points does is allow the developer to sell the 10 prime weeks to 30 people promising each the use of the ten prime weeks. Who gets the other 20 "RED" weeks. Sucker points owners.

Come now. You can do better than that, can't you?

The only thing points can do is oversell prime weeks? How about the Maui Marriott. It does a very fine job of doing exactly what you describe. Last I checked, it was a weeks resort. So, would you say that "All floating weeks systems do is allow the developer to sell the 10 prime weeks to 30 people promising the use of the ten prime weeks. Who gets the other 20 "RED" weeks. Sucker floating week owners."

So, if you are dead set against points, you are logically against floating week systems as well. If you are against floating week systems and you prefer weeks exchanging, your only option is fixed weeks. The Maui Marriott experience has been so painful that they are now moving backwards in time toward fixed week options. Talk about backing yourself into a corner. What if you can't use your week and your don't trust your exchange company. You can rent your week or deposit it somewhere, but your options become very narrow in a fixed week system.

In a properly constructed point system, you can have the benefits of fixed week ownership and gain points benefits that can be used at your option. If you don't want to exercise those options, you decline them simply by calling at the prescribed timeframe.

In summary, if you believe points systems are flawed because it is possible to oversell prime weeks, then you are logically against floating week systems. If you are against floating week systems, then you must support fixed week systems. If you support fixed week systems, you can get fixed week benefits in a point system with additional benefits by calling a number during the open reservation period. If you don't accept that those benefits are valuable, then you are a weeks purist who is really against point options under any circumstance.

That said, this is a valid criticism of some point systems. Prior to buying into a point system, owners should test to see if this is the case in that system. It is also a valid criticism of weeks resorts that have floating weeks. The issue is the same as has been pointed out numerous times on the Marriott boards.

One of the often overlooked aspects of a point system is a concept I will call "the escape value." The escape value is option of last resort. This means, if all else fails, what can I do to salvage value from my week.
This is where point systems excel. But, this post is already too long, so I will save that discussion for another time.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I disagree ONLY BECAUSE there are plenty of owners/exchangers that just want a nice vacation in a nice place and don't give a whop finkle about THE MOST POPULAR PLACE or THE HIGHEST RATED RESORT or THE MOST VALUABLE WEEK. To them, it's not a trade down because they get something of value to them, even if Tuggers don't approve. I am a good example of this. Cashiers, NC, Sheridan, IL, Clarkesville, GA. I took these trips on purpose. I wasn't engaged in any battle.

I agree that there is a large group of timesharers that I will call the "Apathetic Majority" that just want a simple way to go someplace new. For the most part, they are happy-go-lucky and when they make an exchange they are not thinking about whether or not they got a good deal.
These people tend not to be those who are complaining about rentals. By definition, they are apathetic. They are not the arbitragers. They are the arbitragees...the unsuspecting targets of the ruthlessly aggressive trade up crowd.

By the way, "ruthlessly aggressive trade up crowd" is a compliment. I admire people who can figure out a system and beat it fair and square.

Despite what some may think, I am a weeks advocate. I am just not a weeks purist. There are lots of good attributes of weeks based systems as there are in point based systems. The single best benefit, IMO, is the trade up.

When I compare and contrast the weeks based and points based systems side by side, I have logically and empirically concluded that point based systems have the potential of being much more sound in delivering fair exchange to depositers. In many cases, they already do. In some cases, they are outright fraudulent. But, it is likely that the long term trend of a persistent migration toward point based systems will continue.

[camachinist Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close camachinist]

I'm a Marriott weeks owner and I like rentals

I have enough to deal with regarding FF miles and hotel points without considering timeshare points. Guess I'll have to miss out for now...


Pat

[lawren2 Malibu Beach Barbie & A Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close lawren2]

so

I have never understood the logic that if a non-owner acquires a week from prime week owner on the cheap that they are thieves. And yet if an owner does it, they are just smart timesharers? If one is a thief then both are thieves

By the way, "ruthlessly aggressive trade up crowd" is a compliment. I admire people who can figure out a system and beat it fair and square.

In my own experience "playing" with points to define the best or top trading week to deposit I have found points to be misleading. A higher point value week traded well below a lesser point value week that I deposited. ( acknowledging that this was of course used as a test within the weeks system and YES two of my resorts are floating weeks ). In fact I tend to throw in with Carolinian on that side of this argument. Although I tend to be more conservative and less vocal, Steve makes some very valid statements as to the abuse of point assignments.

Working the weeks system to my advantage is what I like to do and I am still trying to determine whether I am a thief or not.

[ebram Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ebram]

BocaBum99

Right:
Floating weeks = Points
The only way you can know thw exact(ie.oceanfront ect)unit you are getting is fixed weeks. Also, in addition to overselling prime weeks the developer has it's own unsold weeks. Since the developer has his hands on the reservation keyboard, who will get the prime weeks? The point or floating weeks owners or the developer so he can rent those units out for tpo dollar at the expense of the owners. Points and floating weeks owners. WAKE UP!!!

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

You probably should seperate the developer's point system (BG, FF, Sunterra) and exchange between resorts from different developer (actually, at this moment, RCI is the one one).

In developer's point system, newer resort will alway get high value, because it reflects the cost, unless any developer willing to do something, it will keep that way. So far, no developer will do that.

In RCI, since it does not really build resorts, so, it has no need to do cost association. However, I believe it needs to tied with developers. So newer resort will be given higher points. It may not really tied to the cost hand in hand, but it is close.

Any market will have its own opportunate. There is rare a thing that can be fair to anyone. Even if RCI is all renting, and there is no exchange company in the world.

Point provides people that treat TS like hotel vacation. Week provides people that treat TS like 2nd home.

With major developer in RCI all start to provide people point system, RCI will more likely provide service only for big resort owner that want to get to other places not provide by home developer, and/or extend their usuage. For small resort owner, RCI will act as internal exchange company, that provide hope to their shoulder/off-season owner.

Jya-Ning

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I think most exchangers want to go where they want and don't obsess so much about trading up or down. I have traded red weeks for blue, like one time I gave RCI a 2BR summer OBX holiday red week for a studio blue week at a limited availibility resort in Europe. It was a smaller blue week but a hard to get resort, and although a blue week, it fell at an extremely convenient time for me to go. I was happy with the trade, although some may call it a massive trade down. It all comes out in the wash. Sometimes you trade somewhat up and sometimes somewhat down. Putting every trade under a microscope to see how much down or up it is makes no sense. It's all about going where you want to go.

I agree that there is a large group of timesharers that I will call the "Apathetic Majority" that just want a simple way to go someplace new. For the most part, they are happy-go-lucky and when they make an exchange they are not thinking about whether or not they got a good deal.
These people tend not to be those who are complaining about rentals. By definition, they are apathetic. They are not the arbitragers. They are the arbitragees...the unsuspecting targets of the ruthlessly aggressive trade up crowd.

By the way, "ruthlessly aggressive trade up crowd" is a compliment. I admire people who can figure out a system and beat it fair and square.

Despite what some may think, I am a weeks advocate. I am just not a weeks purist. There are lots of good attributes of weeks based systems as there are in point based systems. The single best benefit, IMO, is the trade up.

When I compare and contrast the weeks based and points based systems side by side, I have logically and empirically concluded that point based systems have the potential of being much more sound in delivering fair exchange to depositers. In many cases, they already do. In some cases, they are outright fraudulent. But, it is likely that the long term trend of a persistent migration toward point based systems will continue.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I think most exchangers want to go where they want and don't obsess so much about trading up or down. I have traded red weeks for blue, like one time I gave RCI a 2BR summer OBX holiday red week for a studio blue week at a limited availibility resort in Europe. It was a smaller blue week but a hard to get resort, and although a blue week, it fell at an extremely convenient time for me to go. I was happy with the trade, although some may call it a massive trade down. It all comes out in the wash. Sometimes you trade somewhat up and sometimes somewhat down. Putting every trade under a microscope to see how much down or up it is makes no sense. It's all about going where you want to go.

I agree with you on this point. This is another one of the great benefits of a weeks based system.... simplicity. One week in gets one week out. It's great conceptually and very appealing.

One problem I have with weeks based systems is the need for trading power formulas. I don't like being excluded from exchanging for inventory that is available simply because I don't have enough trading power. It's worse when those trading power formulas are hidden and secret. I would like the option to increase my trading power to acquire anything available. That is not possible for most weeks based systems. It is possible in DAE, but anything for anything is not a long term, scalable and sustainable model. At a certain size, it breaks down and the company either must create a trading power system or secret deals happen to the most favored customers out of necessity.

Another problem I have is that availability is not very predictable. We need to wait on people to deposit at various times in a year and hope we have enough trading power to acquire it should it become available. So, in order to get exactly what I want, I have to be patient and play the weeks exchange game. To go back to my fishing analogy, if I want a Mahi Mahi sandwich, I know that I can get it by going to a specific seafood restaurant at a specific time of year. That is how a point system works because ALL inventory in the system becomes available at a predictable time. Whereas a weeks based system is more like sport fishing. If you want a Mahi Mahi sandwich, you need to wait until you catch one which could be a while or never. It depends on how good a fisherman you are and how you go about fishing for it.

The trade up opportunities make it more than worth the effort and the ever escalating exchange costs. It's even fun trying to get the perfect exchange. Many fly fishing enthusiasts tell me that fly fishing is so fun that they don't care if they catch anything. Just being in nature is enough. It's similar for many timesharers although scoring IS important in timesharing.

The concern I have for the apathetic majority is that they were sold the ability to exchange anywhere in that dream vacations book called the RCI Community Guide or II Resort Guide. As we on this board know, that was an unrealistic expectation to start. So, even if inventory management for rentals were perfectly managed, this would raise the ire of many weeks enthusiasts.

Point systems are not perfect either. You really must trust the Trustees of the system for it to operate effectively. It is definitely possible for the developer to cheat. Nothing in timesharing is without risk. It's just important to educate yourself on the pros and cons and determine if you are taking an acceptable risk given your potential return whether that be trade ups or just a nice vacation a couple of times a year.

[ArtsieAng Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close ArtsieAng]

IMHO....

I have now carefully read through the many post on this topic. I have learned much, and have found the topic interesting.

I think that there are pro's and con's to each system...weeks vs points. Knowing how best to utilize the system you have, probably has a lot to do with the success of your trades.

I like the fact that you can stay for less than a week in a point system, and can reserve your stay easier than trading a week, in most cases. I like the fact that there are less fees involved in the point system. I think this system is also less ridgid than weeks.

However, if I had the choice of picking a prime fixed week, or points, I would still pick the prime fixed week.

I think it is because I feel that I would always know what I was intitled to without worring about changes in the system, or competing for the prime weeks. I feel nothing is guaranteed unless you own the fixed week, even if it's likely that you would get your request reserving 12 months out in the point system.

It may not be logical, but is my gut instinct. It is reassuring to know that you own a particular week, no matter what.....

Of course, owning both is not a bad idea either.

[BoardGirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BoardGirl]

IMHO....

I have now carefully read through the many post on this topic. I have learned much, and have found the topic interesting.

I think that there are pro's and con's to each system...weeks vs points. Knowing how best to utilize the system you have, probably has a lot to do with the success of your trades.

I like the fact that you can stay for less than a week in a point system, and can reserve you stay easier than trading a week, in most cases. I like the fact that there are less fees involved in the point system. I think this system is also less ridgid than weeks.

However, if I had the choice to pick a prime fixed week, or points, I would still pick the prime fixed week.

I think it is because I feel that I would always know what I was intitled to without worring about changes in the system, or competing for the prime weeks. I feel nothing is guaranteed unless you own the fixed week, even if it likely that you would get it reserving 12 months out in the point system.

It may not be logical, but is my gut instict. It is reassuring to know that you own a particular week, no matter what.....

Of course, owning both is not a bad idea either.

This is really what it all comes down to: what you want out of your timeshare ownership!

That's why when someone new shows up and says "what's best to own?" it's impossible for The Right Answer to show up. So many choices, TOO MANY CHOICES, and it's such a personal decision.

Sounds like you have what works for you, and I have what works for me. So happens, we have drastically different wants, so have different ownerships. That's ok. I'm not going to tell you what you own is wrong, bad, silly, too expensive, awful location, what I have is superior, any of that. The important thing is that you are happy with what you have, and, that you UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU HAVE. So many people don't.

If you try trading and don't get what you think you should get on exchange, well, that might cloud the picture for you. But, so what, rent for that year instead. You don't have to use Your Week to go somewhere else. That's a new component and a nerve-poker: widespread cheap rentals.

I can see how you'd feel that nothing is guaranteed in points, and while I do agree with you somewhat, sometimes (for us) the best vacations have been the ones when I've just called up and said "whatcha got for week x?" or stumbled across in an RCI Weeks search. I'm ok with that, but understand that many people would not be ok with that at all.

I think it's important to note, as Jya-Ning did, that points systems are all different. Mine is growing, which I think makes availability better even as they add new members. I haven't yet been disappointed, so I'm a happy Bluegreenian.

RCI Points, I can't say because I don't know, but by being the largest exchange company I would expect they have the most Points availability. I don't know if that's trending up or down. Fairfield has more complexities than I had thought, and then there's a whole barrelfull of other systems out there.

Getting the right ownership is not a simple task. Fixed weeks do remove a lot of the complexity.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

IMHO....

I have now carefully read through the many post on this topic. I have learned much, and have found the topic interesting.

I think that there are pro's and con's to each system...weeks vs points. Knowing how best to utilize the system you have, probably has a lot to do with the success of your trades.

I like the fact that you can stay for less than a week in a point system, and can reserve you stay easier than trading a week, in most cases. I like the fact that there are less fees involved in the point system. I think this system is also less ridgid than weeks.

However, if I had the choice to pick a prime fixed week, or points, I would still pick the prime fixed week.

I think it is because I feel that I would always know what I was intitled to without worring about changes in the system, or competing for the prime weeks. I feel nothing is guaranteed unless you own the fixed week, even if it likely that you would get it reserving 12 months out in the point system.

It may not be logical, but is my gut instict. It is reassuring to know that you own a particular week, no matter what.....

Of course, owning both is not a bad idea either.

This is the type of response I hoped for.

There are pros and cons to every timeshare alternative. We need for people to make educated decisions as to what best meets their needs. There is no one right answer for everyone.

Everyone should do what makes most sense to their own vacation priorities and needs.