Weeks Purists Theory: does this ring true?

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Did RCI just update their point Grid for different area? It is a slow change process.

Jya-Ning

They tweaked the crossover grid for trades into Weeks to change it from ultra-fraudulent to merely fraudulent without addressing any of the structural flaws in its design.

I am not aware of ANY changes that have been made in any points assignments to points resorts. Are you? Are any other points advocates?
Or are those numbers seemingly frozen forever? If you know of any, please give the resort and when the numbers were changed.

[ebram Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close ebram]

We need a fair market

we need a market like the stock market to handle the trades.No deal until both sides of the trade agree. If no trade is immediately possible then the market maker(specialist) for a given resort would negotiate with the weeks owner for his points credit not, by fiat the way it is done now.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Ignorance doesn't make a market

In Weeks, the ''price'' is the Trading Power value. Haven't you figured that out yet? The only difference is that it is not rigged and frozen like its counterpart at Points. And of course, as a consequence of its flexibility, not visible.

And since that isn't known how would an owner use it? They can't. They are committing their time and accepting or rejecting a trade without the slightest idea of the fairness or values behind the trade. That is not a market in any sense of the term.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

we need a market like the stock market to handle the trades.No deal until both sides of the trade agree. If no trade is immediately possible then the market maker(specialist) for a given resort would negotiate with the weeks owner for his points credit not, by fiat the way it is done now.

That's what you've got in Points.

RCI is the market maker. They have standing offer out to accept your week in exchange for a given number of Points, regardless of whether or not they have a buyer on the other end. That, by definition, is a market maker.

You can always sell a stock to a market maker at the current bid price, just like you can always give your week to RCI at the current point value. The Poitn value is, effectively, the market Bid Price on the RCI trading floor.

The only difference is that the the Bid price in RCI's market is not as dynamic as the market in a hotly traded stock. But if you've ever had any experience trading illiquid securities, such as real estate limited partnerships, the market is very similar. When we inherited a real estate LP one time, the market Bid price was static for several years.

You have the same options with your week that a stock owner has. If you don't like the Bid price being offered by the market maker, you don't make the deal. If you do like the Bid price, you make the deal.

And if you don't like the Bid price offered by one market maker, you can always go to another market maker.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

They tweaked the crossover grid for trades into Weeks to change it from ultra-fraudulent to merely fraudulent without addressing any of the structural flaws in its design.

I am not aware of ANY changes that have been made in any points assignments to points resorts. Are you? Are any other points advocates?
Or are those numbers seemingly frozen forever? If you know of any, please give the resort and when the numbers were changed.

Not RCI point owner. My FF only gives me RCI week. As an owner, we tend to think the world is working around us. But most of the case, it is not that so.

For most of Point program are programs created by developer, it is their tool to help them sell. At this moment, FF's point program is 16 year old, don't know how other program's age. But I believe most are younger. So none has too much pressure from real inflation world. With the situation now that TS can survive longer, I believe most of the big program will have interest to make it forever. ANd that will be one of the issue they have to solve in order to continue. So don't be too suprise that they will get changed.

Currently there is only one point program that is created by exchange company. And I believe it have less than 7 years history. The way I see it, there are two parts of the program, pure point, and weeks that can be pulled in and out of that program.

For pure point, you always thought their customer is owner, so you claim their point system is not set by market. However, IMHO at this moment, as a new guy with no resorts (or very small set in their system), their main customers are not owners, but builders and HOAs. They are trying to sell they RCI points to lull them into their system. So, their point value is set by these market participants, and none are exchangers. As an exchanger, this just create an opportunity, but don't mean we will be an market determine. The supply part is the whole resort. The demard part is the RCI's desire to pull them in. The end result, is a point value you claim to be determined by developer, which should be right product. But you assume it will never change. I believe the time will put pressure on RCI side once they are in the system. The longer the resort stays, the more says the exchanger will have, therefore it will change.

On the other hand, the week that can be pulled in and out of that program is determined by pure owners (or exchanger). And they did change the value based on the supply and demand of the exchanger. Grant, it is slow process now. But it is a changing process, and determined by supply and demand. It gives me a support of what I say - that these point value will change.

Somehow, I feel that your assumption is that RCI will be the only exchange company that creates a point system, and it shall failed, and no other company will try that again. I feel if they did gain the market share, there will be other exchange company joint in. I see this as an way for them to make the whole TS a bigger pie.

Jya-Ning

[short Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close short]

Timeshare supply is the problem

I do some long weekends, including sometimes 5 day weekends to Europe, and would not thing of using timeshare on that type of trip. Hotel rooms are so much easier for short trips. The points people also have to pay extra fees for this type of use that makes it less appealing.

I also recall a travel industry study a few years ago dealing with longweekend trips that found that they were often 1) much closer to home than longer vacations, and 2) planned much closer to the time of the trip than longer vacations. Both of these factors would make timeshare less useful for that type of trip, even sith split weeks.

To me the timeflexibility of getting exchanges before the window opens for ff tickets is light years more important than this (to me) rather trivial feature.

Carolinian,

All people have different styles of travel. Since I discovered timesharing, I shop my travel to stay in a 1 bedroom or larger now at every opportunity. You can rent timeshares from the Marriotts, Hiltons, Westins for a single night. You can rent timeshares for 2 night minimum through several rental outlets. The biggest limiting factor for this search is location, price, and supply.

My second choice seach is a suite hotel with timeshare like amenities. I consider a plain old style hotel room only if the location is so superiour or the supply so limited that a hotel room is all I can get.

I use the weeks exchange system to supplement the supply of choises for a particular location. I stayed at the Westin in Mission Hills over spring break last week for only 4 days of a 7 week exchange. The cost for an exchange was considerably less than the price on Westins rental site for those days. I have done about 10 week exchanges in the 3 years and I only stayed 7 days in two of them.(Bay Club in Hawaii and Four Seasons Aviara)

I am looking for a kitchen and a seperate sitting area from the bedroom(my DH stays up late watching TV and I get up early to drink my coffee).

I guess what I wanted to point out is that while our travel styles are polar opposites we both enjoy the timeshare experience. While I think points is a better way of managing all timeshare travel exhanges because it allows people who want to stay 7 days to stay 7 days and it allows folks like me who want to stay 4 days to do so.

But as long as the weeks system survives and my exchange cost is low enough I will use that also.

Short

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

In Weeks, the ''price'' is the Trading Power value. Haven't you figured that out yet? The only difference is that it is not rigged and frozen like its counterpart at Points. And of course, as a consequence of its flexibility, not visible.

In your theory, a command economy suddenly becomes a market economy. Tell that to those who lived in the old Soviet bloc!

Rigged and frozen prices that cannot respond to changes in supply and demand cannot create a market based system.

I guess next you will be telling us that rent control is also an example of a market based system!

You are so predictable. Did you see the post I made after the one you quoted?

I forgot about your "rent control" argument. I'll need to add that to my list of endearing Carolinianisms.

By reading your posts, I have figured out that you have a superficial understanding of many economic principles. From currencies, to supply and demand, to price and economic systems.

Is Charlatan in South Carolina or North Carolina?

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Right:
Floating weeks = Points
The only way you can know thw exact(ie.oceanfront ect)unit you are getting is fixed weeks. Also, in addition to overselling prime weeks the developer has it's own unsold weeks. Since the developer has his hands on the reservation keyboard, who will get the prime weeks? The point or floating weeks owners or the developer so he can rent those units out for tpo dollar at the expense of the owners. Points and floating weeks owners. WAKE UP!!!

It's funny you should mention Oceanfront. I am staying this weekend in a 2 bedroom Oceanfront unit at Solara Surfside. I just happen to get it on bonus time for $59/night. I got the same resort again in an Oceanfront unit in March for $279 from SFX for a week. Pretty good for a resort in a point system.

In Bluegreen, they specifically have a point category for oceanfront units. You can guarantee yourself oceanfront. Try to do that with RCI or II. It won't happen.

Also, I rented a 2 bedroom Oceanfront unit from a floating week platinum owner at Ocean Points for New Year's week. Boy, that was a nice Oceanfront unit.

The truth of the matter is that properly constructed point systems do allow owners to book Oceanfront whereas most weeks systems don't and they don't force you to stay in the same unit every year at the same resort unless you want to do so.

I encourage you to look at the Hyatt Vacation Club program. You buy a fixed week unit and you pick it like real estate. It only turns to points at the 6 month before check in point if you do not elect to use your week. Even if you elect to use your week, you can deposit it with alternate exchange companies.

Your negative characterization of point systems is not factual. It is merely a paranoia based on the history of timeshare developers.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Perhaps II's rquest first system is the fairest system of all. If you don't fid what you want you don't make the deal(trade).

And you do understand that "reguest first" requests have lower trade power than standard depositt first? I agree that request first is a nice feature. I also agree the members who deposit first should receive preferential treatment.

*********

By the way, I'm interested in knowing what points systems and floating weeks units you have owned? You speak so knowledgeably about them, that I'm sure you must have expereience owning and using them.

'Cause, you know, let's say I were someone looking for information, and I've got conflicting information about how the systems works. Then I find out that one source of information comes from people who actually own and use those types of resorts. And the other set of information comes from someone who has never owned or used such properties.

Well, then, whose information would you think is more credible?

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Right:
Floating weeks = Points
The only way you can know thw exact(ie.oceanfront ect)unit you are getting is fixed weeks. Also, in addition to overselling prime weeks the developer has it's own unsold weeks. Since the developer has his hands on the reservation keyboard, who will get the prime weeks? The point or floating weeks owners or the developer so he can rent those units out for tpo dollar at the expense of the owners. Points and floating weeks owners. WAKE UP!!!

Now you've got me really confused here. For years I've been reseving what I truly believe to be ocean front units at my resort in Hawaii.

And I've been reserving prime winter weeks at the Club Regina resorts in Mexico, including usually at least one Presidents week unit. I've even rented those units out and none of my renters have ever been turned away by the resort for not having reservations?

Have I and my tenants all been deceived? Is there some Matrix-like deception of owners going on here?

Or might it possiible that some Points and Floating Weeks owners are actually getting exactly what they paid for, and the systems are working exactly as promised? Just as some Weeks owners are getting exactly what they paid for and were promised.

And some Points and Floating week owners are not getting what they paid for and were promised. And some Weeks owner are not getting what they paid for and were promised?

Is it possible that Fixed weeks, floating points, Points, vacation clubs, and all of the other permutations of timeshare ownership are neither inherently good or bad, just different? And whether they are good or bad is really situtation specific - for all type of ownerships?

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Resistance is futile.... I am Sam. Sam I am....

Boca:

Why do I feel you are the Sam in the Green Egg and Ham?

Jya-Ning

GREEN EGGS AND HAM
By Dr. Seuss

I am Sam
I am Sam
Sam I am

That Sam-I-am!
Than Sam-I-am!
I do not like
that Sam-I-am!

Do you like
green eggs and ham?

I do not like them,
Sam-I-am.
I do not like
green eggs and ham.

Would you like them
here or there?

I would not like them
here or there.
I would not like them
anywhere.
I do not like
green eggs and ham.
I do not like them,
Sam-I-am.

Would you like them
in a house?
Would you like them
with a mouse?

I do not like them
in a house.
I do not like them
with a mouse.
I do not like them
here or there.
I do not like them
anywhere.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

Would you eat them
in a box?
Would you eat them
with a fox?

Not in a box.
Not with a fox.
Not in a house.
Not with a mouse.
I would not eat them here or there.
I would not eat them anywhere.
I would not eat green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

Would you? Could you?
In a car?
Eat them! Eat them!
Here they are.

I would not,
could not,
in a car.

You may like them.
You will see.
You may like them
in a tree!

I would not, could not in a tree.
Not in a car! You let me be.

I do not like them in a box.
I do not like them with a fox.
I do not like them in a house.
I do not like them with a mouse.
I do not like them here or there.
I do not like them anywhere.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

A train! A train!
A train! A train!
Could you, would you,
on a train?

Not on a train! Not in a tree!
Not in a car! Sam! Let me be!

I would not, could not, in a box.
I could not, would not, with a fox.
I will not eat them with a mouse.
I will not eat them in a house.
I will not eat them here or there.
I will not eat them anywhere.
I do not eat green eggs and ham.
I do not like them, Sam-I-am.

Say!
In the dark?
Here in the dark!
Would you, could you, in the dark?

I would not, could not,
in the dark.

Would you, could you, in the rain?

I would not, could not,
in the rain.
Not in the dark. Not on a train.
Not in a car. Not in a tree.
I do not like them, Sam, you see.
Not in a house. Not in a box.
Not with a mouse. Not with a fox.
I will not eat them here or there.
I do not like them anywhere!

You do not like
green eggs and ham?

I do not
like them,
Sam-I-am.

Could you, would you,
with a goat?

I would not,
could not,
with a goat!

Would you, could you,
on a boat?

I could not, would not, on a boat.
I will not, will not, with a goat.
I will not eat them in the rain.
I will not eat them on a train.
Not in the dark! Not in a tree!
Not in a car! You let me be!
I do not like them in a box.
I do not like them with a fox.
I will not eat them in a house.
I do not like them with a mouse.
I do not like them here or there.
I do not like them ANYWHERE!

I do not like
green eggs
and ham!

I do not like them,
Sam-I-am.

You do not like them.
So you say.
Try them! Try them!
And you may.
Try them and you may, I say.

Sam!
If you will let me be,
I will try them.
You will see.

Say!
I like green eggs and ham!
I do! I like them, Sam-I-am!
And I would eat them in a boat.
And I would eat them with a goat...

And I will eat them in the rain.
And in the dark. And on a train.
And in a car. And in a tree.
They are so good, so good, you see!

So I will eat them in a box.
And I will eat them with a fox.
And I will eat them in a house.
And I will eat them with a mouse.
And I will eat them here and there.
Say! I will eat them ANYWHERE!

I do so like
green eggs and ham!
Thank you!
Thank you,
Sam-I-am!

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Is the Timeshare Beat your bible for timesharing and do you take their every word as gospel? Evidently so ....... !

Only if the information confirms previously stated positions.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Haven't you missed the BIG difference with the stock market.

The value of stocks constantly adjusts to everchanging supply and demand factors. Points values are rigged and frozen. Not the same thing AT ALL!

That's what you've got in Points.

RCI is the market maker. They have standing offer out to accept your week in exchange for a given number of Points, regardless of whether or not they have a buyer on the other end. That, by definition, is a market maker.

You can always sell a stock to a market maker at the current bid price, just like you can always give your week to RCI at the current point value. The Poitn value is, effectively, the market Bid Price on the RCI trading floor.

The only difference is that the the Bid price in RCI's market is not as dynamic as the market in a hotly traded stock. But if you've ever had any experience trading illiquid securities, such as real estate limited partnerships, the market is very similar. When we inherited a real estate LP one time, the market Bid price was static for several years.

You have the same options with your week that a stock owner has. If you don't like the Bid price being offered by the market maker, you don't make the deal. If you do like the Bid price, you make the deal.

And if you don't like the Bid price offered by one market maker, you can always go to another market maker.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Actually, the first multi-developer points programs appeared in South Africa, created by a former loan shark (or tallyman, as they are called there). It was CRI Points, and is a direct ancestor of RCI Points. CRI Points is one of several sleazy points operations connected to the Club Leisure Group (another is Flexi Club). An outgrowth of CRI Points South Africa was CRI Points of Europe. CRI Points of Europe was merged with Global Points Network (GPN) by Cendant to create RCI Points.

For more on these South African points operations see www.crimeshare.org/77.html (there are other t/s issues in SA also on that page, so skip through them) Look for the posts on Club Leisure, CRI Points, and FLexi Club. It is an eyeopener about the nature of points.

Not RCI point owner. My FF only gives me RCI week. As an owner, we tend to think the world is working around us. But most of the case, it is not that so.

For most of Point program are programs created by developer, it is their tool to help them sell. At this moment, FF's point program is 16 year old, don't know how other program's age. But I believe most are younger. So none has too much pressure from real inflation world. With the situation now that TS can survive longer, I believe most of the big program will have interest to make it forever. ANd that will be one of the issue they have to solve in order to continue. So don't be too suprise that they will get changed.

Currently there is only one point program that is created by exchange company. And I believe it have less than 7 years history. The way I see it, there are two parts of the program, pure point, and weeks that can be pulled in and out of that program.

For pure point, you always thought their customer is owner, so you claim their point system is not set by market. However, IMHO at this moment, as a new guy with no resorts (or very small set in their system), their main customers are not owners, but builders and HOAs. They are trying to sell they RCI points to lull them into their system. So, their point value is set by these market participants, and none are exchangers. As an exchanger, this just create an opportunity, but don't mean we will be an market determine. The supply part is the whole resort. The demard part is the RCI's desire to pull them in. The end result, is a point value you claim to be determined by developer, which should be right product. But you assume it will never change. I believe the time will put pressure on RCI side once they are in the system. The longer the resort stays, the more says the exchanger will have, therefore it will change.

On the other hand, the week that can be pulled in and out of that program is determined by pure owners (or exchanger). And they did change the value based on the supply and demand of the exchanger. Grant, it is slow process now. But it is a changing process, and determined by supply and demand. It gives me a support of what I say - that these point value will change.

Somehow, I feel that your assumption is that RCI will be the only exchange company that creates a point system, and it shall failed, and no other company will try that again. I feel if they did gain the market share, there will be other exchange company joint in. I see this as an way for them to make the whole TS a bigger pie.

Jya-Ning

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

By reading your posts, I long ago figured out that you either misunderstand many economic principles or misstate them to back your arguments.

You also seem to lack any understanding or concern for the economics of HOA's, which is one of the big differences between us.

You are so predictable. Did you see the post I made after the one you quoted?

I forgot about your "rent control" argument. I'll need to add that to my list of endearing Carolinianisms.

By reading your posts, I have figured out that you have a superficial understanding of many economic principles. From currencies, to supply and demand, to price and economic systems.

Is Charlatan in South Carolina or North Carolina?