The myth of exclusivity

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

I think of exclusivity is whether you can gain access to the accomadations at any price. At one time if I wanted to stay at the Marriott Ocean Club in Maui I would have to own and I would have to own a full week and I would have to own it every year.

I must accident step into a time machine and fall into Knighthood.

I am pretty sure some owner will never give out their unit/week, and I am pretty sure some will give it up at a price. Some fix week owner will let that unit waste, and some point owner will let their point waste. But that is their exclusive right.

You joint AAA, you pay X amount of money as club member, so you enjoy certain benefits, you can extend that to whoever you see fit. With the amount you pay, you don't expect the benefit is great, but as club member, you do enjoy something. And that is the right bought by the money you paid.

I doubt what should be the proper way to define exclusive in a free capitalism country. And I don't know how many really exclusive clubs are out there with the only requirement is to pay the entry fee. Sports club is few one if you buy resell you have to get approval by all owners. But you can buy a ticket to watch the team.

Jya-Ning

[BoardGirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close BoardGirl]

When I was growing up, "exclusive" meant 'for the rich' so flashing forward to the last few years, I never considered timeshare exclusive, cuz how could I own?? If everyone that had a timeshare had paid tens of thousands, well, then, yeah, that would be a level at which many of us would be kept from "joining".

It may have been sold that way, "back then", and it probably was exclusive, given the major barrier to entry - MONEY.

Even the sports club I belong to, and pay for that privilege, is "exclusively for members".

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

To me, a product is exclusive if very few people can BUY it. A high end fractional at Ritz-Carleton is exclusive because most people cannot buy it. A Rolls Royce is exclusive because it is so expensive.

Actually, since Boca has defined his view of exclusive, so follow this logic, RCI exchange can not be exclusive, since its membership fee is kind of cheap compare to Ritz-Carleton. And Most of TS can not be, unless they are only afforadable by rich people, certainly not at resell.

Jya-Ning

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Boca draws the line the wrong place in order to support his position.

The exclusivity concept never was exclusive to each specific resort, but to the timeshare community as a whole. You had to own a timeshare to participate in the system. This gave blue weeks value as a ''starter week'' and as a way into the system to get the extra vacations and 45-day window exchanges.

[short Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close short]

Boca draws the line the wrong place in order to support his position.

The exclusivity concept never was exclusive to each specific resort, but to the timeshare community as a whole. You had to own a timeshare to participate in the system. This gave blue weeks value as a ''starter week'' and as a way into the system to get the extra vacations and 45-day window exchanges.

Then each individual member only system like RCI, II, Hgvc, Worldmark are all exclusive as you need to be a member and to be a member you need to own a qualified timeshare.

However, timeshare in general does not require you to own a timeshare where you want to go. You can always rent without beening a owner.

So timeshare accommadations are not exclusive but membership in the clubs to gain access to inventory and member benifits is exclusive.

Short

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Boca draws the line the wrong place in order to support his position.

The exclusivity concept never was exclusive to each specific resort, but to the timeshare community as a whole. You had to own a timeshare to participate in the system. This gave blue weeks value as a ''starter week'' and as a way into the system to get the extra vacations and 45-day window exchanges.

Carolinian,

This is my point exactly. Timeshares were sold as exclusive, but that exclusivity could never be guaranteed because when you bought into that timeshare, you did not buy an undivided interest in "the timeshare community as a whole." That was never possible. You can't own an entire marketplace. You did not acquire an ownership position into RCI and therefore never acquired the right to keep the community exclusive. Therefore, I claim that exclusivity was a myth.

The "false" exclusivity did give Blue week owners the sole ability to trade up their undesirable intervals for whatever leftovers remained. You seem to believe that that feature was a feature that "the timeshare community as a whole" somehow owes to resorts and blue week owners. It is exactly because the community was NOT exclusive that its elimination was possible. The exchange companies decided they could make more money by offering those trade ups elsewhere and they are/were completely entitled to do it.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

It works in two ways. Both benefitting the mini-system owner and penalizing the "regular" weeks holder.

First the mini-group gets a tremendous boost in trade power by the volume it brings to the table. The exchange company - II or RCI - wants those deposits and sees it as a good tie in. So they may give a preference in advance dates to reserve or by locking away inventory for xx days so only the mini's can reserve it. I see that clearly with Sunterra and II. The same week at a Sunterra resort used as a "deposit and hope" with II gets the standard downsized unit and borderline use times I'm all too used to seeing with them. But take that same exact week, place it into Club Sunterra options (points) and suddenly only 1/2 to 2/3 of the points are needed to reserve top times and bigger units with II. And have "change" left over to use with Club. So the out going trade is often better for the mini members.

Second on the incoming side (the deposit given up to RCI/II for the time taken by the mini-system member) the mini-system gets to say what it is worth! So you can be sure it is the absolute minimum they can give back. It's probably one big source of all those off peak weeks and smaller units that flood into the systems. In both cases the regular old paying owner gets hosed by the preference shown to the mini's. In fact the preference is as bad or worse than what is seen in the often lamented RCI Points preference but these perks are far more widespread in total than RCI Points are (yet).

In RCI the FF mini gets a type of "request first" not offered to other members and their fees are paid by FF (included in the annual fes but those are still very competitive compared to the fees paid at other resorts that also require the owners to pay RCI to be members). At II you don't get a full membership (you should) but you pay nothing for what amounts to a "premium" level ability to, as some would say, raid the II system ahead of the mere paying customers.

As a mini-system member I love it. As an owner and paying member the obvious favoritism shown to these mini groups was one big reason I dropped II and RCI weeks.

This is completely consistent with my experiences and observations about the relationship of mini-point systems to weeks systems. Both II and RCI.

The mini-system aggregates "trading power" through its control of large quantity of intervals at various locations. They go to the negotiating table with RCI and II and say that they will deposit tens of thousands of intervals into their exchange company if they give their owners some type of preference. Then, they do the points equivalent of bulkbanking the non-prime weeks into the weeks system at the same time the points members have the highest trading power possible and pluck out high quality stuff.

This is how a barter system works. The exchange company just wants exchanges. And, brand name resorts probably cause the longest chains of exchanges in their system. So, it is worth giving up high trading power for even low demand weeks.

This behavior is a built in part of the weeks exchange system. There is no way to stop it. The exchange company would be doing itself a disservice if it did not negotiate deals with their interval aggregators on behalf of their owners. Even if all point systems were removed from weeks systems, other methods of interval aggregation would lead to the same result.

This is why I strongly believe that resort groups will dominate timesharing in the future. As an owner in one of these systems, you get all the benefits trading power of the whole system.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Your contention that a 45-day window trade is a ''trade up'' doesn't wash. You refuse to recognise that inventory with a short shelf life is distressed inventory and its real value is reduced. That is consistent with other sectors of the leisure travel industry. You refuse to recognize that a late deposit is given greatly reduced trading power, and it therefore only makes good logical sense that remaining deposits in the spacebank at the last minute also have a greatly reduced value.

RCI participated in the way timeshare was marketed. They produced and distributed films and other materials to developers that explained the system. They were as much a part in selling the system as exclusive as the developers. RCI broke faith with its members when it was taken over by the Cendant scoundrels.

The 45-day window was a very wise aspect of the deHahn business model, back when RCI had a concern with the health of the entire system instead of trying to maximize their short term profit at the expense of hosing the system for the long term. It would still be a wise part of the system if it were not for the short sighted greedy Cendant crowd controlling RCI.

The issue is also not ''blue'' weeks. It is oversupply weeks. You ignore the overbuilt areas, which have a great many more ''phony red'' weeks that are clogging the system than blue weeks elsewhere. Look at the Availibility tables in the European version of the RCI directory. There are many ''red'' weeks in overbuilt Orlando that have a much worse supply/demand curve than a great many blue weeks. One of the reasons it is so easy for a blue weeks elsewhere to trade into a ''red'' week in Orlando is that they have similar supply/demand curves and the market therefore says that they are equivalent weeks - ''like for like'' if you will.

Carolinian,

This is my point exactly. Timeshares were sold as exclusive, but that exclusivity could never be guaranteed because when you bought into that timeshare, you did not buy an undivided interest in "the timeshare community as a whole." That was never possible. You can't own an entire marketplace. You did not acquire an ownership position into RCI and therefore never acquired the right to keep the community exclusive. Therefore, I claim that exclusivity was a myth.

The "false" exclusivity did give Blue week owners the sole ability to trade up their undesirable intervals for whatever leftovers remained. You seem to believe that that feature was a feature that "the timeshare community as a whole" somehow owes to resorts and blue week owners. It is exactly because the community was NOT exclusive that its elimination was possible. The exchange companies decided they could make more money by offering those trade ups elsewhere and they are/were completely entitled to do it.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Your contention that a 45-day window trade is a ''trade up'' doesn't wash. You refuse to recognise that inventory with a short shelf life is distressed inventory and its real value is reduced. That is consistent with other sectors of the leisure travel industry. You refuse to recognize that a late deposit is given greatly reduced trading power, and it therefore only makes good logical sense that remaining deposits in the spacebank at the last minute also have a greatly reduced value.

You should let Hotel and General public know this distress period. I have a Sunday to Sunday Memorial week to Canada, so for fun, I try to test the 45 distress theory. I pick Erie, PA and Niagara Falls Staturday, since they are at my way to there. Start from 45 days, there still has some rooms in Erie, but no discount, Priceline does not fetch me anything that match their off-season price. Then all gone. I see one come from time to time, but they are full pirced, and taken out immediatedly. For Niagara Falls, the Room of Falls View starts from mid 300, none discount. Will be interest to see if anyone will eventually yield back to their off-season price and when will that happen. Although I doubt that will happen.

As exclusive right, exchange is still exclusive right. You have to have an interval to play. Wether it worth moneywise is another story. But I am sure there are people love this gaming.

Jya-Ning

[short Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close short]

Hotels pricing systems

The hotel industry has developed pricing systems over the years to avoid devaluing their product. This is why you can not get off the freeway and walk up to a Holiday Inn and get a room for $20. If they start giving their inventory away close to check in people learn that trick and no one makes reservations anymore creating big pricing problems.

Why don't airlines open up more frequent flyer saver tickets the day of departure. Because if one business traveler buys a saver ticket instead of a $1500 fare they would have purchased they the airlines lost $1500 less the liability they have on the books which is probobly less than 01 cent per mile.

Some Tuggers have complained that RCI's last call is inconsistent but it most likely that way for a reason. If I can always find Orlando on LC for $229 than why make an exchange early. Very soon you have everyone waiting until the last min. and you devalue Orlando exchanges. I think thats why LC areas vary periodically. So people cannot with certainty anticipate something always being there.

Short

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

If they are all gone, or close to it, of course you are not going to get any discount. It's called supply and demand, and here the supply is nill, and with a major holiday week, there will be demand.

Try some of the last minute cruise outlets if you want to see discounting of last minute inventory. Or direct negotiation with hotels at the last minute. Or how some airlines dump extra seats into their ff program close to flight time.

There are companies out there whose whole businees is offering various last minute travel bargains.

You should let Hotel and General public know this distress period. I have a Sunday to Sunday Memorial week to Canada, so for fun, I try to test the 45 distress theory. I pick Erie, PA and Niagara Falls Staturday, since they are at my way to there. Start from 45 days, there still has some rooms in Erie, but no discount, Priceline does not fetch me anything that match their off-season price. Then all gone. I see one come from time to time, but they are full pirced, and taken out immediatedly. For Niagara Falls, the Room of Falls View starts from mid 300, none discount. Will be interest to see if anyone will eventually yield back to their off-season price and when will that happen. Although I doubt that will happen.

As exclusive right, exchange is still exclusive right. You have to have an interval to play. Wether it worth moneywise is another story. But I am sure there are people love this gaming.

Jya-Ning

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Airlines DO open up more seats as they see how their seats are selling. Some do it more than others. And charter airlines often cut their fares at the last minute, although sometimes you have to know who the brokers are to book them.

Obviously you have not bargained directly with a hotel. It sometimes works.
I have gotten rates in Washington, DC better than the special conference rate for a meeting I was going to by directly negotiating with the hotel. One of the best such discounts I got was in Brussels on day with a lot of meetings in town. I had found hotel after hotel full and finally found one with one room left but by then it was 11PM. At that late stage, I offered less than half what they quoted, and even with tight supply in the city, it was late enought that they took it.

The hotel industry has developed pricing systems over the years to avoid devaluing their product. This is why you can not get off the freeway and walk up to a Holiday Inn and get a room for $20. If they start giving their inventory away close to check in people learn that trick and no one makes reservations anymore creating big pricing problems.

Why don't airlines open up more frequent flyer saver tickets the day of departure. Because if one business traveler buys a saver ticket instead of a $1500 fare they would have purchased they the airlines lost $1500 less the liability they have on the books which is probobly less than 01 cent per mile.

Some Tuggers have complained that RCI's last call is inconsistent but it most likely that way for a reason. If I can always find Orlando on LC for $229 than why make an exchange early. Very soon you have everyone waiting until the last min. and you devalue Orlando exchanges. I think thats why LC areas vary periodically. So people cannot with certainty anticipate something always being there.

Short

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

The hotel industry has developed pricing systems over the years to avoid devaluing their product. This is why you can not get off the freeway and walk up to a Holiday Inn and get a room for $20. If they start giving their inventory away close to check in people learn that trick and no one makes reservations anymore creating big pricing problems. ..

Short

Uhhh - isn't that what Priceline and Hotwire are all about??

I have, in fact, stayed at Doubletrees for $25/night when I had to stay over in town and went to Priceline to get a room for that night.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

If they are all gone, or close to it, of course you are not going to get any discount. It's called supply and demand, and here the supply is nill, and with a major holiday week, there will be demand.

Exactly, and that supply and demand will change from time to time based on the current situation. If that is true, to set a day like 45 and declare it is distress start from this day will be crazy.

If say, One of the Erie hotel room for memorial weekend get cancelled today, will they put it to discount immediately? No, they will probably wait a few days, then they probably open it to distress inventory. And some hotel may choice not to do that at all to protect its own product.

If RCI do that on their week system, doesn't it makes more sense?

Jya-Ning

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

proof of the inflexible nature of week for week trades

Airlines DO open up more seats as they see how their seats are selling. Some do it more than others. And charter airlines often cut their fares at the last minute, although sometimes you have to know who the brokers are to book them.

Obviously you have not bargained directly with a hotel. It sometimes works.
I have gotten rates in Washington, DC better than the special conference rate for a meeting I was going to by directly negotiating with the hotel. One of the best such discounts I got was in Brussels on day with a lot of meetings in town. I had found hotel after hotel full and finally found one with one room left but by then it was 11PM. At that late stage, I offered less than half what they quoted, and even with tight supply in the city, it was late enought that they took it.

Yes but you were using a variable exchange medium - cash. In the weeks model you can't alter the value of your deposit. In fact you don't even know what it is. And you can't directly neogotiate any trade in that system. Thats why it's called fixed.