Important notice from Club Sunterra

[d0ugie_fresh Member Find all posts View Profile Close d0ugie_fresh]

Is it safe to trust TRUST?

So far, that - and the 13-month HRA reservation window - are the only good reasons I can think of why someone would surrender a Po'ipu deed for a Trust ownership.

Is there any real reason that I would want to put my deeded week at Kaanapali into the TRUST?

I had declined their offer a year ago, and I think I'm glad I did. All I saw was them trying to sell me more points ($$$) to give me a 13 month reservation window instead of the 12 month I already have and "lower" maintenance fees (which from what I've read isn't really happening anyway). Then on top of that, I lose my deed and any voting power towards HOA issues.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Is there any real reason that I would want to put my deeded week at Kaanapali into the TRUST?

I had declined their offer a year ago, and I think I'm glad I did. All I saw was them trying to sell me more points ($$$) to give me a 13 month reservation window instead of the 12 month I already have and "lower" maintenance fees (which from what I've read isn't really happening anyway). Then on top of that, I lose my deed and any voting power towards HOA issues.

The only advantages to Trust that I see for a Ka'anapali owner would be:

• If you really, really wanted to stay at Po'ipu or Ka'anapali during Christmas, New Years, or some other peak time, the 13-month window would make it easier for you.
• If you really, really wanted to have home resort advantage for Po'pu as well as Ka'anapali.

Other than that, I can't see of any reason to give up your deed. Note that you can join Club Sunterra without surrendering your deed (but you've got to purchase some additional ownership with them to do so).

*****

You also missed an additional big disadvantage of surrendering your deed - if you want to sell your ownership, you can no longer sell a deeded ownership - all you can sell is your Trust UDI. At least for now, the market for Trust UDI is smaller than the market for deeded ownerships. And if annual fees for the Trust are higher than they are for a deeded Ka'anapali, I think the Trust UDI's will always have less value than a deeded ownership.

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

All I saw was them trying to sell me more points ($$$) to give me a 13 month reservation window instead of the 12 month I already have.

If you really, really wanted to stay at Po'ipu or Ka'anapali during Christmas, New Years, or some other peak time, the 13-month window would make it easier for you.

The way it's supposed to work from my understanding is that HI Trust members see inventory at 13months out, but they see only inventory that is owned by the Trust.

As a deeded owner you can see deeded owner inventory at the 12month point (you can't see Trust inventory).

At the 10month point all owners can see all inventory. So at 10months point both owners can see all inventoery.

This is contrary to what TROG implies.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

The way it's supposed to work from my understanding is that HI Trust members see inventory at 13months out, but they see only inventory that is owned by the Trust.

As a deeded owner you can see deeded owner inventory at the 12month point (you can't see Trust inventory).

At the 10month point all owners can see all inventory. So at 10months point both owners can see all inventoery.

This is contrary to what TROG implies.

I don't think it's contrary. What you can reserve at 13 months does depend on what is available in Trust inventory. But as I understand, the reservation system simply treats the Trust as a single owner of multiple deeded weeks. The Trust can reserve weeks in correlation with the the weeks that it owns.

So if the trust presently has available to it oceanfront units for 2008 that have not been used by trust owners, in November of 2007 Trust owners can begin reserving oceanfront units for Christmas 2008. Trust owners cannot reserve more oceanfront units in 2008 than there is corresponding Trust inventory, but if the Trust does have remaining reservation rights, Trust owners can make reservations corresponding to those rights beginning 13 months before check-in.

Now, I think there are likely some other procedures within the Trust to balance out when that inventory becomes available to Trust owners. For example if it were a total free for all among trust members to use available inventory, I suspect that most of the Trust ocean front inventory would get reserved by the end of summer. Then for the remainder of the year Trust members would be shut out of ocean front units.

So I suspect that the Trust has a policy that opens up inventory on some specified monthly schedule. But that's just speculation - it's a question I would someday like to ask.

I have been told, however, that as far as the reservation system is concerned the Trust is simply a single large owner of multiple deeded weeks. The inventory control system tracks and controls unit usage by the trust by matching up unit reservations with the reservation rights in the deeds held by the Trust.

Thus, if the Trust holds 1000 total deeds for ocean front units, then Trust members can not reserve more than 1000 ocean front units in a given calendar year. (For simplicity I'm ignoring float-float deeds that might be in the Trust, but they are simply tracked as another ownership category.)

***

Another unasked question is if there are resort level policies that limit the numbers of reservations that can be made at any time. If it is simply a free for all based on units owned and Trust is allowed to exercise their rights at 13 months whilst everyone else is limited to 12 months, it's easy to see how Trust members could book out more than their fair share of the resort during the most popular times.

I suspect that's already happening, as I'm finding a significant drop in ocean front availability for next August, 11-months before arrival. I've been reserving at that time for six or seven years , and the check-in options are greatly diminished.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

OK, that explains the "cost is to high" part. If it's trust based then I can see one resort forcing the cost to all owners above what is acceptable. Especially if hotel accomadations are available at reasonable prices to trust members. This would appear to be viewed more from the European side than from those of us in the U.S.

Glad to hear that the resorts in St. Maarten are "flagship" resorts. Spending a week in the islands has some dergree of appeal to me even though my wife would rather spend that week on St. Thomas.

Hotel prices in London reasonable? What have they been smoking?

What we are probably seeing is Cloobeck wanting to cash out on the value of London real estate and buy something cheaper elsewhere. Nice profit for him and to heck with the members who are deprived on choices. This may be a signal that any Sunterra Europe property in a location where Cloobeck can cash out on high real estate prices is at risk. Isn't a points system controlled by a self-seeking developer just dandy????????

And I read that the Broome Park timeshare expires in 2014. The owners association has been offering a lot of cheap weeks there.

[dougp26364 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dougp26364]

Hotel prices in London reasonable? What have they been smoking?

What we are probably seeing is Cloobeck wanting to cash out on the value of London real estate and buy something cheaper elsewhere. Nice profit for him and to heck with the members who are deprived on choices. This may be a signal that any Sunterra Europe property in a location where Cloobeck can cash out on high real estate prices is at risk. Isn't a points system controlled by a self-seeking developer just dandy????????

And I read that the Broome Park timeshare expires in 2014. The owners association has been offering a lot of cheap weeks there.

I said "if". Since I haven't been to London then what do I know. If what Mr. Cloobeck has done isn't in the best interest of European owners he could end up crossways of them and find out how their court systems work first hand.

It could be that European trust members don't value going to London like U.S. club members would. It very well could be that locations outside of the cities are more coveted amongst the Europeans than city locations.

But I'm just assuming things here since I'm sitting on U.S. soil and don't hang with the European crowds. I really don't know what they enjoy for their Holiday getaways.

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

All existing reservations for Carlton Court will be honored and those members will be contacted individually.

Well, I've been contacted individually! Two sheets of paper in the envelope from Europe, one a copy of the letter from Cloobeck that says "All existing reservations for Carlton Court will be honored and those members will be contacted individually" and another from Customer Services Department - Europe that says they will source nearby hotel accommodations at no cost -or- return all SunOption PLUS 4000. If I had only known, I could have trebled my SunOptions for next year!

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I said "if". Since I haven't been to London then what do I know. If what Mr. Cloobeck has done isn't in the best interest of European owners he could end up crossways of them and find out how their court systems work first hand.

It could be that European trust members don't value going to London like U.S. club members would. It very well could be that locations outside of the cities are more coveted amongst the Europeans than city locations.

But I'm just assuming things here since I'm sitting on U.S. soil and don't hang with the European crowds. I really don't know what they enjoy for their Holiday getaways.

European timesharers seem to like urban resorts as much if not more than Americans. Indeed, in the general travel market, the term ''City Break'' is used quite often in the UK.

A good contrast to the action of Sunterra is that of the oldest timeshare organization around, Hapimag, a European points-based mini-system that was the grenddaddy of all timesharing. Hapimag has a number of urban timeshares and is adding more. The last time I was in Budapest, while strolling around Castle Hill, I saw a large renovated historical building near the lower gate, and on closer inspection saw that it was a new Hapimag timeshare. Not only is Hapimag building urban resorts, but they are going for choice locations in the very heart of where tourists want to be. Another location that I have heard about that Hapimag has added is Prague, and not out in the boondocks but bang on Wencelas Square.

If you want a European points-based mini-system that cares about its members, then you want Hapimag, not Sunterra. Cloobecks' actions seem to serve Cloobeck, not his members.

Sunterra Europe has already incurred the wrath of its members from a legal standpoint. The Timeshare Consumers Association in the UK has been trying to encourage a lawsuit against Sunterra's points system even before the Diamond Resorts purchase. See Sunterra Compensation Group There are also independent groups like Sunterrafied and Scambusters

One other concern from the TCA site on a possible lawsuit is that according to their statistics, over half of Sunterra's members in Europe are weeks-based rather than being in the points club. I wonder if any of them own at Carlton Court? If Cloobeck is arbitrarily closing the resort and there are any weeks-based members there, they would seem to be possibly the biggest victims of this action.

I recall some posts on the UK t/s boards about pre-Diamond Sunterra closing a small resort they had acquired when they bought out Thurnham Leisure Industries. That resort had many weeks-based members who were essentially told they could either take some Sunterra points for their weeks or just lose out. This was nothing but thuggery and Sunterra should have been sued for that one. I wonder if any weeks-based members that may be at Carlton Court are being given similar treatment