What will Diamond do to Bluegreen?

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Could be wrong, but I believe there are two different groups. One is the older BG owners. Who get week, and converted it to BG point. They do have their deed. The other is club that created by BG when they sell their points. They are more like WM where club owns all the deeds. So whoever manages the club or sit on club has duty to the member to make sure the inventory does not get pull out from the club.

Jya-Ning

This is incorrect. ALL Bluegreen Points are based on an underlying deeded week and unit number. It is NOTHING like WorldMark. If anything, it is more like Fairfield with the exception that the deeds are held in trust instead of directly by the owners. But, owners have fundamental owner beneficiary rights based on those exact deeds, so owners don't own points that are disbodied from the underlying deeds.

In essence, owners own a fixed week that turns into points for use according to the BVC reservation rules if they don't exercise their right to use that fixed week.

Bluegreen does have control of the BVC board. So, they can change the reservation rules slightly, but not radically without severely disrupting the Club.

To change this fundamental principle for how the Club operates would not work without a major disruption in operations (i.e. hundreds of thousands of customer service calls). They would never try to do it. The Club would grind to a halt.

Far more likely is that DRI will do what Wyndham did to Fairfield and WorldMark. Keep the Club separate, but start consolidating operations and systems for both Clubs to get synergy in cost. And, each Club would get access to the other through developer only benefits. This is way easier to do than start over.

[tonyg Goomba & Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tonyg]

If DRI were to BUY Bluegreen, they would basically be buying only what Bluegreen owns- the organization and any unsold or unowned property. The concern I would have is just what Bluegreen owns. I remember ASC selling off the ski slopes at their timeshares- which may have diluted the perceived value of the timeshares and come as a rather unpleasant surprise to owners.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

This is incorrect. ALL Bluegreen Points are based on an underlying deeded week and unit number. It is NOTHING like WorldMark. If anything, it is more like Fairfield with the exception that the deeds are held in trust instead of directly by the owners. But, owners have fundamental owner beneficiary rights based on those exact deeds, so owners don't own points that are disbodied from the underlying deeds.

In essence, owners own a fixed week that turns into points for use according to the BVC reservation rules if they don't exercise their right to use that fixed week.

Bluegreen does have control of the BVC board. So, they can change the reservation rules slightly, but not radically without severely disrupting the Club.

To change this fundamental principle for how the Club operates would not work without a major disruption in operations (i.e. hundreds of thousands of customer service calls). They would never try to do it. The Club would grind to a halt.

Far more likely is that DRI will do what Wyndham did to Fairfield and WorldMark. Keep the Club separate, but start consolidating operations and systems for both Clubs to get synergy in cost. And, each Club would get access to the other through developer only benefits. This is way easier to do than start over.

That basically describes the operation of THE CLUB for DRI - at least the trust version (there is at least one other). As you can see from some of the other posts regarding DRI they run that system as their own little playground from what I've seen. With DRI holding control of the Board and basically telling the Trustee what to do they answer to no owner (who can be booted for "missing" a $74 payment). Don't assume a Trust hold much protection unless you - not the trust - hold the deeds for those underlying weeks.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

That basically describes the operation of THE CLUB for DRI - at least the trust version (there is at least one other). As you can see from some of the other posts regarding DRI they run that system as their own little playground from what I've seen. With DRI holding control of the Board and basically telling the Trustee what to do they answer to no owner (who can be booted for "missing" a $74 payment). Don't assume a Trust hold much protection unless you - not the trust - holds the deeds for those underlying weeks.

Sure, a trust makes it easier to foreclose. That is true. But, in any foreclosure situation, there still must be due process. Otherwise, a simple complaint to the Florida Real Estate Commission will result in a hearing and widespread complaints results in sanctions and policy changes. I haven't read the entire thread regarding that case, but, I'll bet there is more than meets the eye. Probably just poor execution on DRI rather than a proactive intent to immediately foreclose on anyone late more than a day on any payment.

Moreover, the foreclosure process could help the Club more than hurt it. Since there are always dead beat owners, making it easy to foreclose could be a benefit to the Club rather than a hindrance. I would withhold judgement until I saw more facts.

Lastly, if you own the deed and DRI owns the HOA, they can still charge you a special assessment whether or not the deeds are in trust. There are lots of things a resort developer can do to make your lives miserable if they want.
Any HOA can whether its independent or controlled by a resort developer. Focusing on one item like the ease of the foreclosure process to declare that deeded weeks are better than deeds held in trust is a red herring and trivial point. Ownerships are still governed by Florida Real Estate Statutes.

[mace Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close mace]

DRI Owner TO BG Owners

I like what DRI has done, since they acquired Sunterra, the resorts options have increased significantly (some Raintree, possibly BG) and the quality of the older resorts have been improved as well. I've been to BG resorts and I would say that I believe Diamond resorts on the whole are a bit more upscale, exceptions do exist. However the resort locations of the BG resorts offer quite a bit of value to DRI. I for one thought of purchasing into the BG system just for the ability to travel to nearby Eastern U.S. locations for short vacations. Do the math Diamond Resorts even with the increased MFs can provide at the moment the best value in Timeshares although if you own trash weeks of course this is not true. I've either traveled myself or given away vacations this year totaling between 8 and 9 weeks mostly in 2 bedrooms, I've rented the rest of my points to cover my MFs in full, thats value.
It may be pointed out that it's limited time at some locations and this is certainly true, but at 10 months out time is available at most of the resorts around 85% in my limited experience.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Lastly, if you own the deed and DRI owns the HOA, they can still charge you a special assessment whether or not the deeds are in trust. There are lots of things a resort developer can do to make your lives miserable if they want.
Any HOA can whether its independent or controlled by a resort developer. Focusing on one item like the ease of the foreclosure process to declare that deeded weeks are better than deeds held in trust is a red herring and trivial point. Ownerships are still governed by Florida Real Estate Statutes.

I'm not focusing on that even though it is a critical part. When you hold the deed YOU vote for whatever Board/resort it is at. When the trust holds the deed you have no vote. If the Developer holds the management spot - deeded or not - that's another whammy against owners. Special assessments will always be the bane of condo's/timeshares - better to hold the power of the vote to at least have some say in the matter vs the developers/managements whims. Finally depending on FL statutes to protect your individual rights as an owner is a fantasy. They write great rules but if systems/resorts (hello Wastegate - is there a rule/regulation they haven't broken in Fl? And their not even a trust) choose to ignore them just try to get any action out of them. They and the developer know it costs big $$ to fight them and most owners aren't willing to spend that so they go on their merry way.

I would never - ever - own a non-deeded timeshare as its far too much power to those who simply want your money in a system already far too tilted toward developers/managers and away from the small owners.

As an example what absolute rights would the Trust "owners" (really lease holders) have if this plan goes through to modify the terms, rules or block it? None. Sure you could file a complaint but lots of luck with that going anywhere. If you buy into a trust based system you are putting all your faith in that system running to your satisfaction. If not you have zero rights to change it - your choice is to get out. They could care less as they can resell it. Not a position I want to be in with my upfront buy in to whatever system it may be.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I'm not focusing on that even though it is a critical part. When you hold the deed YOU vote for whatever Board/resort it is at. When the trust holds the deed you have no vote. If the Developer holds the management spot - deeded or not - that's another whammy against owners. Special assessments will always be the bane of condo's/timeshares - better to hold the power of the vote to at least have some say in the matter vs the developers/managements whims. Finally depending on FL statutes to protect your individual rights as an owner is a fantasy. They write great rules but if systems/resorts (hello Wastegate - is there a rule/regulation they haven't broken in Fl? And their not even a trust) choose to ignore them just try to get any action out of them. They and the developer know it costs big $$ to fight them and most owners aren't willing to spend that so they go on their merry way.

I would never - ever - own a non-deeded timeshare as its far too much power to those who simply want your money in a system already far too tilted toward developers/managers and away from the small owners.

As an example what absolute rights would the Trust "owners" (really lease holders) have if this plan goes through to modify the terms, rules or block it? None. Sure you could file a complaint but lots of luck with that going anywhere. If you buy into a trust based system you are putting all your faith in that system running to your satisfaction. If not you have zero rights to change it - your choice is to get out. They could care less as they can resell it. Not a position I want to be in with my upfront buy in to whatever system it may be.

In Bluegreen, all owners get a vote. Not sure what you mean by that.

I haven't seen your whole argument, but I think you are putting way too much emphasis on deeded week vs. held in trust. I see very little difference in legal structure, owners rights and recourse should the board be controlled by a power entity.

Let's look at Fairfield. Lots of those ownerships are deeded and Wyndham still made them worthless. At this point, I believe WorldMark is way better than Fairfield. And, WorldMark is the penultimate in deeded trust.

If you are looking at Westgate, they would be like they are independently of who held the deeds.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

As an example what absolute rights would the Trust "owners" (really lease holders) have if this plan goes through to modify the terms, rules or block it? None. Sure you could file a complaint but lots of luck with that going anywhere. If you buy into a trust based system you are putting all your faith in that system running to your satisfaction. If not you have zero rights to change it - your choice is to get out. They could care less as they can resell it. Not a position I want to be in with my upfront buy in to whatever system it may be.

I completely disagree. I think you need to read the Bluegreen Vacation Club trust agreement before you render such a judgement. Obviously, it depends on how the trust agreement is written.

The only difference between a deeded week and one held in trust is that the transfer is easier since when a deed changes hands in the Bluegreen Trust, it doesn't need to be re-recorded. So, transfer fees can be reduced. In WorldMark, it's only $150 to do a transfer. In WorldMark, all owners get to vote for the board based on how many credits they have.

I actually believe that timeshare needs to move toward a trust model to get away from the horrendous closing cycles. Why would a stock that is 1000 times more complicated than a timeshare be tradable online and in seconds whereas a timeshare takes an average of 2-3 months to close. It's due to the arcane rules of real estate recording.

When you own a timeshare, you are completely held hostage to the quality, caliber and capabilities of the board whether it is independent or a resort developer. Relying on a deed to protect is foolhardy.

[dougp26364 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dougp26364]

Now that Bluegreen has signaled it's intent to be acquired by Diamond Resorts, I'd like to get an idea of what they are likely to do when they become the resort developer and club manager. Can current Sunterra/Diamond owners provide us some insight?

The Bluegreen Vacation Club operates a lot like the big Club trust of 14 or so resorts. In fact, I believe they are both created under the Florida Multi-site timeshare plan.

Bocca,

I've thought about this a lot over the last few days. In short, I really don't know what DRI will do with Bluegreen other than incorporate it into their existing program. Since I know little about how Bluegreen actually works I haven't got a clue as to whether they plan to keep it seperated with recipricol benetis or intergrate it with DRI's THE Club.

What I suspect is that, initially (and if the sale even goes through), is that they'll be kept seperate with recipricole benefits between the clubs. I would look for them to eventually be merged, hopefully taking the best of both clubs and making them into one club.

Only time will tell what will happen. I remain optimistic but feel that it will be a good 4 or 5 years before things really come into focus as to the extent of how things will be. For now I'm happy with points reservation system DRI offers. It is more flexible than the weeks exchanging I was doing. It's only been a year but DRI has made imporvements to the old Sunterra resorts. Improvements that have been positive and necessary IMO. Of course, not everyone is happy about the cost of those improvements. Mr. Cloobeck does have a definate view of what he wants his resorts to be. I'm not always certain I understand his personal objectives and I'm not always 100% that their customer focused so much has his presonal preference and sales focused but I do expect quality improvements compared to what Sunterra had.

The only Bluegreen resort we've exchanged into has been Falls Village. I believe Bluegreen took over from a previous developer at that resort. We enjoyed the units we've had there but, the soft goods were not up to Mr. C's expectations. I could see him wanting to upgrade those items sooner rather than later. Keep in mind that upgrades with DRI come at a price and that price won't come out of DRI's pocket. I do not think that, from what little I've seen, that Bluegreen quality will be as much of a difference in what Sunterra quality was when Mr. Cloobeck bought out Sunterra. Sunterra was, IMO, a distressed company whereas Bluegreen appears to be a financially sound and well preforming company. I do not think there will be as much of a difference if DRI becomes the owner of Bluegreen as was the case with Sunterra.

At any rate, these are just my opinions. It's going to take a few years to really get a good feeling for changes if the deal even goes through. I'm certain that some things will change. With timeshare they always do. Even it there's not a merger.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Doug,

I echo your thoughts. I think it will take a while before the Clubs can or will be merged. I do think they will remain distinct.... just like Fairfield and WorldMark are still distinct.

I agree that Sunterra resorts have higher quality furnishings from Bluegreen on average. Either they can be brought up to a higher standard with higher resulting fees. Or, there could be 2 tiers of product in a portfolio. Some timeshare resorts like Raintree does this and they upgrade owners through the course of their lives to higher quality products. Time will tell.

[dougp26364 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dougp26364]

Doug,

I echo your thoughts. I think it will take a while before the Clubs can or will be merged. I do think they will remain distinct.... just like Fairfield and WorldMark are still distinct.

I agree that Sunterra resorts have higher quality furnishings from Bluegreen on average. Either they can be brought up to a higher standard with higher resulting fees. Or, there could be 2 tiers of product in a portfolio. Some timeshare resorts like Raintree does this and they upgrade owners through the course of their lives to higher quality products. Time will tell.

I could be wrong but it looks like DRI is moving towards two tiers within their own resorts. At Fall Creek in Brason, at least one building has "deluxe" units. These require addtional points over the standard units to reserve. In this way DRI is allowing current owners happy with standard units to remain in standard units while offering those of us who enjoy higher quality furnishings the choice of booking and paying for the higher quality.

What I'm wondering now is will DRI build only "deluxe" units and attempt to maintain the standard units or will they continue to build both? I was hoping to see additional construction at Fall Creek this year as it appeared there were lots for 3 additional buildings but, when we were there a couple of weeks ago there was no new construction activity. With DRI making a big on Bluegreen and the fact Bluegreen has added new buildings to Falls Village, this could be why. I would suppose that a company would not want to many unsold units between several resorts to maintain.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

This is incorrect. ALL Bluegreen Points are based on an underlying deeded week and unit number.

Thanks for the correction. My believe is, as long as the taker willing to pump the new development into the system, it will not hurt that system. If there is no new inventory added but existing possible inventory been pulled out, it will be bad, does not matter if the owner hold deeds or not.

Not sure how Sunterra was constructed either, but I would think there are ways for both clubs share inventories even if both trust beep kept as seperate entities. ANd I believe both development team will continue to be there.

Jya-Ning

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Thanks for the correction. My believe is, as long as the taker willing to pump the new development into the system, it will not hurt that system. If there is no new inventory added but existing possible inventory been pulled out, it will be bad, does not matter if the owner hold deeds or not.

Not sure how Sunterra was constructed either, but I would think there are ways for both clubs share inventories even if both trust beep kept as seperate entities. ANd I believe both development team will continue to be there.

Jya-Ning

There is a method today in place where Bluegreen shares inventory with Shell Vacation Club. It's called Select Connections. Bluegreen owners have a point table for Shell and Shell has a point table for Bluegreen. If the system is designed properly, they should be able to add DRI resorts as well.

Jim

[terrazoon Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close terrazoon]

It seems like there is a lot of overlap. I don't get it.

Does Diamond need more Florida and South Carolina resorts?

I know the answer is "Diamond does whatever is in its interests" but I don't see how this is.

When they make the sales pitch, wouldn't it be better to say "and we have premier resorts in Cabo, PV, Cancun" than to say "you guys in Georgia now have 30 resorts in driving distance!"

Oh well ...

[fnewman Member Find all posts View Profile Close fnewman]

Depends on where you live, I suppose; some people fly great distances to get to those southeastern coastal resorts.