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BocaBum99 · 06-23-2010, 02:56 PM

There are 2 big macro level issues that the new Marriott points program will have on current owners.

1) Marriott is doing exactly what I expected. They are seizing control of inventory so that they are responsible for determining who gets priority to which units. When Marriott originally created their weeks Club, they made a huge mistake in delegating the exchange function to II thereby losing control of inventory assignment. They are now seeking to get it back.

The net result of this is that owners who have learned to work the current II system will lose that ability until they sign onto the Marriott program.

Flexchange availability will most likely be much less rich than it has been in the past. Mostly because those units will be held for internal points exchangers first. What will remain will be the lower quality and demanded units in Flexchange. This actually makes sense for most Marriott owners, but it is at the expense of smart timeshare exchangers who learned how to maximize usage of the legacy Marriott system.

2) Marriott is now unlinking the unit you own from the unit you buy. That is a huge problem for current owners of the highest demanded units in the Marriott system. What this does for Marriott is make it much easier to sell points at ALL Marriott sales sites without regard to where inventory is actually available. If, for instance, MOC is fully sold out and there is demand for new owners at MOC, Marriott no longer must purchase back from the resale market existing MOC units. They can purchase the cheapest units in Florida or Branson, add them to the Trust and sell them at MOC as if they actually had more MOC deeds. This will inevitably make the competition for the hardest to get units in Marriott.

This is why their VIP program will be important. It will encourage owners to upgrade to get even better privileges to gain access to a zero sum game of booking reservations across the Marriott system.

There are 2 program elements that I expected to be in it that aren't. First, I thought that Marriott would allow resale weeks to be enrolled into the program in the future. Clearly, they don't want smart timesharers to learn to best units to buy to lower their costs. I am still investigating ways to get in for cheap, but Marriott has tried to keep these avenues closed.

Second, I expected some type of discount program within a 60-day window. They don't have it. So, something has to happen with expiring inventory. My guess is that it will end up in II as in the past, however, the deposits will be for lowest demand units.

camachinist · 06-23-2010, 03:24 PM

Boca, can you clarify something for me, as this new system is like a hurricane to me. If that visitor at MOC buys points from the salesperson there who says 'hey, come back here anytime with your points, we have a reservation for you', is that person actually booking a real reservation there, like I would as a current MOC owner, or are they 'booking' from available unit/days in the II/Marriott exchange system? Further, at a resort like NCV (Newport Coast) where the resort isn't completely sold out, will a points owner be able to reserve unit/days there from Marriott's unsold inventory, which Marriott can choose to be anywhere in the season under request? That's the one aspect which has me concerned, especially with the points system having the possibility to reserve at 13 months. Marriott could, arbitrarily, snatch up a couple thousand July unit/days and make them available to points, where they prior might have/would have made them available to season owners, leaving more of their unsold inventory in the off-season. Am I misunderstanding this potential use of the reservation system?

TBH, based on my experiences with II, I wish Marriott had kept this thing in-house. Anyway, I guess I have some learning to do...

BocaBum99 · 06-23-2010, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by camachinist

Boca, can you clarify something for me, as this new system is like a hurricane to me. If that visitor at MOC buys points from the salesperson there who says 'hey, come back here anytime with your points, we have a reservation for you', is that person actually booking a real reservation there, like I would as a current MOC owner, or are they 'booking' from available unit/days in the II/Marriott exchange system? Further, at a resort like NCV (Newport Coast) where the resort isn't completely sold out, will a points owner be able to reserve unit/days there from Marriott's unsold inventory, which Marriott can choose to be anywhere in the season under request? That's the one aspect which has me concerned, especially with the points system having the possibility to reserve at 13 months. Marriott could, arbitrarily, snatch up a couple thousand July unit/days and make them available to points, where they prior might have/would have made them available to season owners, leaving more of their unsold inventory in the off-season. Am I misunderstanding this potential use of the reservation system?

TBH, based on my experiences with II, I wish Marriott had kept this thing in-house. Anyway, I guess I have some learning to do...

I haven't spent my full time effort analyzing this program. But, I have been following most of the discussions and facts of the program.

According to my understanding, Marriott points owners will have access to the following inventory:

1) Trust Points, which is what we would expect.
2) Weeks owners who have committed their units to the Club.
3) Access to Interval International inventory.

What is speculation is that Marriott will get preferential access for the Points owners by granting 13 months access to high demand inventory. Since owners of points don't actually own any specific resort, they have rights at ALL resorts, so the logic says. In all actuality, Marriott will probably strike some type of balance between an allocation to the Club vs. deeded week owners. I don't believe they will raid the system. But, I do believe they will put their thumb on the scale.

What is also speculation is the ability of Marriott to Claw back inventory out of II that are deposited by Weeks owners. This ability to claw back is completely dependent upon what they negotiate with II. Since we don't know what that agreement is, we can only guess. My guess is that there is a very robust clawback agreement that gives Marriott control of inventory and rich exchange fees for II.

No matter how the balance of allocation goes for the above, Marriott is (rightfully) plugging the loophole in the system where weak traders can upgrade via the inefficiencies of the II system. The internal exchange system will surely plug that gap.

In addition, I feel quite confident that there will be additional pressure and competition for prime weeks at the highest demand resorts simply because owners think they own an equal portion of all resorts. So, they will believe that they own at the resort they bought at even if that resort has been over sold and over subscribed for years. It's one of the oldest timeshare tricks in the book.

ejommen · 06-23-2010, 11:23 PM

Per my conversation with MVC today, II exchanges will still work exactly like they did before--including the Marriott priority after Mariott weeks are deposited. That seems like positive news, but if I read your comments correctly, the trust could always trade lessor weeks for better weeks to improve its overall internal exchange position. I guess excess points would be the same thing.
I didn't ask if the trust would be competing with others through II. It makes sense that they would do so, but I would not be very pleased.

camachinist · 06-25-2010, 05:29 PM

I've noted, elsewhere, discussion of the ability of DCP's to be 'adjusted' and noted references to MRP's and have the following comments:

A critical difference, as MRP's are oft-discussed, is that, perhaps exclusive of the ones given as a perk/incentive of buying/owning developer timeshares (but aren't strictly 'purchased'), all MRP's are 'free', a reward for loyalty to the Marriott brand.

DCP's, OTOH, cost money, *big* money. Willy-nilly arbitrary changing of those point values is an entirely different dynamic. What I'm hearing is that a lot of us don't trust nor expect Marriott to do 'the right thing' by its owners. There's a reason for that, individual to each of us.

J. Willard (Bill) Marriott is getting up there (78) and the philosophy which he built the Marriott brand on is changing, markedly so, IMO, in the last decade. My takeaway from all this reading is that, overwhelmingly, people don't have the same faith in Marriott as a brand that they (and we) once did.

If they would've kept this in-house on MARSHA and enacted a simplistic, easy to understand methodology for both legacy and new owners, *perception* would be far different.

taffy19 · 06-26-2010, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by camachinist View Post

I've noted, elsewhere, discussion of the ability of DCP's to be 'adjusted' and noted references to MRP's and have the following comments:

A critical difference, as MRP's are oft-discussed, is that, perhaps exclusive of the ones given as a perk/incentive of buying/owning developer timeshares (but aren't strictly 'purchased'), all MRP's are 'free', a reward for loyalty to the Marriott brand.

DCP's, OTOH, cost money, *big* money. Willy-nilly arbitrary changing of those point values is an entirely different dynamic. What I'm hearing is that a lot of us don't trust nor expect Marriott to do 'the right thing' by its owners. There's a reason for that, individual to each of us.

J. Willard (Bill) Marriott is getting up there (78) and the philosophy which he built the Marriott brand on is changing, markedly so, IMO, in the last decade. My takeaway from all this reading is that, overwhelmingly, people don't have the same faith in Marriott as a brand that they (and we) once did.

If they would've kept this in-house on MARSHA and enacted a simplistic, easy to understand methodology for both legacy and new owners, *perception* would be far different.

Would everybody know what MARSHA means? I didn't so looked it up. I have a real problem with all the abbreviations that are so often used. Would it be too much asked to spell it out at least one time.

Thanks a lot.

camachinist · 06-26-2010, 07:11 PM

Sorry... too many years on Flyertalk...

(Marriott's Automated Reservation System for Hotel Accommodations)

IIRC, it was first utilzed back in the early 80's.... so a very mature system.

BigGene · 07-03-2010, 02:31 PM

Destination Points bad or good?

I purchased three Fairway villa units many years ago with the sales pitch that If I owned a Platinum week I could exchange the week thru II even up for another available platinum week thruout the Marriott inventory. as I understand the destination points system each Marriott property will be issued a Destination Points Value. The value will be different for each property. So, as I see it my Fairway Villa will no longer trade for another Platinum week. I may have to use more than one week's points value to get a one week stay at a more point Value property thereby DEVALUING my Fairway Villa. I will lose a full week value.

hliw · 07-05-2010, 01:05 PM

Gene - if you bank with II as you always have, you should be in decent shape, although you may find it harder to trade into MARRIOTT.

BigGene · 07-05-2010, 01:44 PM

Marriott changing rules after sale.

The main selling point described to me by the salesperson Pete Cooper was that if I buy a platinum week at Fairway Villas I could even exchange it thru II for another Marriott platinum week property. It was this feature that caused me to purchase THREE WEEKS five years ago. Now, It will take almost TWO of my Fairway Villa weeks to get one platinum week at the vacation resorts that I have already exchanged for in the past. This stinks and it will get worse.

camachinist · 07-08-2010, 11:22 AM

Late trade tests have indicated to me that it's possible the Marriott 'preference' of 21-24 days, where only Marriotts can 'see' Marriotts, has gone away. People have opined that bulk deposits aren't subject to this rule, which might be true, but I'm seeing seemingly obvious customer deposits, like studios, being sighted by non-Marriott traders as they appear for me in my trade tests. Something new that existing owners have to deal with? An 'enhancement' for the points system? Stay tuned

camachinist · 07-10-2010, 12:27 AM

OK, here's another nuance I stumbled across in my ungainly way of dealing with life...

I was staring at this the other day...

and I kept thinking "something is wrong here". I should be getting up at 5:30am on *Thursday*, not *Friday* to do my reservations. I did get up on Thursday, to no avail, and again today, equally impotent, but it got me to wondering what had changed.

Apologies to those who have it all figured out, but that screenshot of the inventory release calendar is for "Points Owners and Enrolled Owners" meaning people who have enrolled their weeks in the DC system.

Now, it took awhile for my overheated brain to grasp this, but, apparently, although enrolled owners are still direct competition for reserving at their home resorts, this calendar indicates that they can only make 'exchange requests' for a resort a day after the home resort owners get their chance at making direct reservations. For simplicity, I'm using the 12 month window as the example.

Mull through this and see if it makes sense. Still competition for direct reservations but a day delay for 'reservations' being requested through the internal exchange DCP system.

Clear as mud?

camachinist · 07-10-2010, 01:14 AM

More stuff, stored here for convenience. This concerns exchange procedures....

Code:

Marriott Internal Exchange Procedures and Priorities
1. For all Club Program Trust Members and all Club Program Exchange
Members requesting exchange services based on the relinquishment
of Points, the Club Program Manager will be solely responsible for the
performance of exchanges into the Marriott Resorts. Where a requested
internal exchange cannot be confirmed through inventory available in
the MVC Club Program, the Club Program Manager will submit internal
exchange requests through II and, where the necessary inventory is
or becomes available in the Exchange Program, II will issue the
Confirmation to the Club Program Manager, who in turn will issue such
Confirmation to the applicable Club Program Member.
2. For those Club Program Exchange Members choosing to relinquish a
Week(s) and all Individual Members, exchanges into Marriott Resorts
will be performed by II in accordance with terms and conditions of this
Section. The procedures set forth herein are applicable only when all
resorts requested for exchange by a Club Program Exchange Member
or Individual Member are Marriott Resorts.
3. To place a valid exchange request for use of accommodations at
Marriott Resorts only, a minimum of one Marriott Resort and one time
period (in one-week increments) must be requested. Additional Marriott
Resorts and time periods may be specified, and a Club Program
Exchange Member or Individual Member may be confirmed into any
listed resort for any Week specified.
4. Club Program Exchange Members choosing to relinquish a Week and
Individual Members requesting an exchange only to a Marriott Resort may
use either the Deposit First or Request First exchange method as set
forth above, whereby all terms and conditions of the respective method
chosen will apply, except that the Club Program Exchange Member or
Individual Member will not be obligated to pay an exchange fee. In such
instance, the Marriott Internal Exchange Fee, which is currently set at
US$109, will be paid by the Club Program Manager on behalf of each
Club Program Exchange Member. Individual Members will be obligated to
remit the Marriott Internal Exchange Fee to II on their own behalf. Any
exchange request submitted which contains both Marriott Resorts and
other Member Resorts must be submitted in accordance with the other
terms and conditions set forth in this guide, including payment of the
standard applicable exchange fee in accordance with Fees, Paragraph 5
below. In the event such request is ultimately confirmed to a Marriott
Resort, no portion of the fee paid to II will be refunded.
5. Marriott Internal Exchange Option. In addition to being able to request
an internal exchange to a Marriott Resort using either the Deposit First
or Request First exchange method, a Club Program Exchange Member
choosing to relinquish a Week or Individual Member may select a third
type of exchange method available only to Club Program Exchange
Members choosing to relinquish a Week(s) and Individual Members (the
“Special Marriott Internal Exchange Option”). The applicable Club
Program Exchange Member or Individual Member must select from
the Deposit First, Request First, or Special Marriott Internal Exchange
Option exchange methods at the time of initiating a Marriott internal
exchange request. The Special Marriott Internal Exchange Option may
be used where a Club Program Exchange Member or Individual Member
places an exchange request at least 75 days prior to the commencement
date of his or her Week and requests travel dates that fall after his or
her assigned Week. The use of the special Marriott Internal Exchange
Option will be governed by the terms set forth in this Paragraph 5.
If a Club Program Exchange Member or Individual Member selects
the Special Marriott Internal Exchange Option and II does not issue
a Confirmation from 12 months to at least 75 days prior to the
commencement date of the member’s assigned Week, such Club
Program Exchange Member or Individual Member has the following
options:
(a) The Club Program Exchange Member or Individual Member may
request that his or her assigned Week be automatically returned
to him or her for his or her own use and that II cancel the pending
exchange request.
(b) The Club Program Exchange Member or Individual Member may
request that II continue processing his or her exchange request
and that the assigned Week be deposited with II. If this option is
chosen, all rights to occupy the assigned Week are relinquished
by the Club Program Exchange Member or Individual Member and
assigned to II 75 days prior to the commencement date of the
deposited Week, irrespective of whether II ultimately confirms
the pending exchange request. In the event such request is not
ultimately confirmed by II, such Club Program Exchange Member’s
or Individual Member’s deposit will be governed by the terms and
conditions of the Deposit First exchange method as set forth under
Week-Based Exchange Methods above.

B. Exchange Members. This section only applies to Exchange Members. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as an Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an enrollment agreement with Exchange Company. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s enrollment agreement with Exchange Company and so long as an Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Program in accordance with these Exchange Procedures. If an Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s Affiliate Program or access Special Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in the Disclosure Guide and these Exchange Procedures.
Membership in the Program automatically terminates for a given Exchange Member if the Exchange Member voluntarily or involuntarily transfers the Exchange Member’s Interest and owns no other Interest.
III.
PROGRAM OPERATION AND EXCHANGE POINTS
A.
Management. The Program shall be operated and managed by Exchange Company pursuant to the terms of the Exchange Company Documents. Exchange Company is expressly authorized to take such actions as it deems are necessary or appropriate for the operation of the Program, including, without limitation, the performance of all duties outlined in these Exchange Procedures and the delegation to a third party of any such duties. In addition, Exchange Company reserves the right, to be exercised in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion from time to time, to limit reservations of Use Periods made: (i) for Accommodations in a particular Affiliate Program or Component; (ii) from the Program into a particular Affiliate Program; or (iii) from a particular Affiliate Program into the Program, in order to adequately balance demand and use of the Accommodations.
B.
Distribution.
1. Trust Members. For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, each Member will be assigned a Distribution each Use Year. The Distribution represents the reservation rights of the Member’s Interests during a particular Use Year in relation to other Interests participating in the Program during that Use Year. A Member will be permitted to use his or her Affiliate Program points each Use Year to make a reservation for Accommodations that are part of the Member’s Affiliate Program or the Member may voluntarily participate in the Program by converting all or a portion of his or her Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points for the purpose of making a reservation through the Program. Unless otherwise provided by Exchange Company, Members may not convert his or her Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points except in connection with making a reservation through the Program. Currently, the conversion of Affiliate Program points into Exchange Points is one-to-one; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to vary the conversion ratio in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, including, but not limited to, on an Affiliate Program-by-Affiliate Program basis.
2. Exchange Members. Each calendar year, an Exchange Member may Deposit Use Periods associated with the Exchange Member’s Interest with the Exchange Company during the applicable Deposit Window. Exchange Members are required to Deposit Use Periods in 7-consecutive evening increments (in accordance with the usage calendar associated with the Exchange Member’s Component). Lock-off portions of an Accommodation are not eligible to be deposited. Deposits may only be made during the Deposit Window for the Use Period that the Exchange Member desires to Deposit. With respect to Exchange Members who own alternate year Interests, such Exchange Members will be entitled to Deposit Use Periods associated with their Interests during the calendar year in which such Exchange Member’s use rights occur, and will be required to use their Exchange Points during the same year; provided, however, such Exchange Member will be assessed Exchange Company Dues on an annual basis.
For administrative convenience in the operation of the Program and for determination of the respective rights of Exchange Members to enjoy the benefits of the Program, the Exchange Company will assign a Distribution of Exchange Points to each Exchange Member for Use Periods Deposited by the Exchange Member for exchange each Use Year. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution for a particular Use Period is based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by the Exchange Company and may very from year to year by such factors. The number of Exchange Points in a Distribution is not in any way intended to be reflective of the economic value of any Interest.
When an Exchange Member Deposits a Use Period with Exchange Company, such Exchange Member assigns and Exchange Company will automatically have all of such Exchange Member’s rights to reserve and use such Use Period for the given Use Year. Once such Use Period has been deposited with Exchange Company, it may not be withdrawn.
3. All Members. The Exchange Points necessary to reserve a Use Period are identified on a daily basis on the Exchange Point Schedule. Exchange Company will review the Exchange Point Schedule at least annually and amend the Exchange Point Schedule as necessary to maintain an equitable distribution of the usage requirements based on various factors such as relative daily and seasonal demand, Accommodation capacity, size, view, and furnishings, and other valuation parameters established by Exchange Company or as might be required by law. Any such modification to the Exchange Point Schedule shall not require approval by the Members or amendment of these Exchange Procedures. Exchange Company may also temporarily discount the number of Exchange Points otherwise required on the Exchange Point Schedule from time to time to reduce the number of Exchange Points required to reserve specific Use Periods at specific Accommodations in the event Exchange Company deems such discounts beneficial to the Program. Such temporary adjustments of the Exchange Point Schedule shall not require an increase in the number of Exchange Points required to reserve other Use Periods within the Program.
Unless banked into the following Use Year as may be permitted by these Exchange Procedures, if a Member fails to use any or all of a Member’s Distribution during a given Use Year the Exchange Points allocated during such Use Year expire and the Member shall not have use of that Use Year’s unused Exchange Points during succeeding Use Years. A Member may use borrowed Exchange Points from the following Use Year’s Distribution and any banked Exchange Points to reserve a Use Period(s) during the appropriate Reservation Window.
Each Member may use the Member’s Distribution each Use Year in order to reserve Use Period(s) or other products or programs during that Use Year in accordance with these Exchange Procedures, as they may be amended from time to time. A Member who is unable to use any available Use Period is not relieved of the obligation to remain a Member in Good Standing at all times. When confirming a reservation, Exchange Points will be deducted from the Exchange Points that will expire soonest. With respect to Exchange Points with the same expiration date, Exchange Points will be deducted in order from the lowest-numbered Interest to the highest-numbered Interest owned by the Member.
C.
Use of Exchange Points for Use Periods. Members may use their Distribution of Exchange Points with respect to a given Use Year to reserve available Use Periods that occur during such Use Year. With the exception of Exchange Points that have been banked for use in the immediately following Use Year, Exchange Points that are from a particular Use Year’s Distribution shall only be used before they expire.
All or a portion of the Distribution may be used to make reservations for one or more of: (i) the Member; (ii) Family Members or Guests staying in separate Accommodations at the same Component during the same period as a Member residing there; or (iii) Family Members or Guests staying in an Accommodation without the Member present. All reservations must be made by a designated Delegate. Exchange Company retains the right, to be exercised in Exchange Company’s reasonable discretion, to limit the number of Accommodations a Member may reserve for use by Family Members or Guests, regardless of the number of Exchange Points the Member has available for use. No additional Exchange Points are required to reserve Accommodations for a Member accompanied by Family Members or Guests in the same Accommodation as the Member.
Exchange Company (or its designees) shall have the exclusive right to utilize Exchange Points assigned to Exchange Company’s Interests or any other Exchange Points that Exchange Company is entitled to use for any purpose in its sole and absolute discretion, including, but not limited to, (i) the purposes of customer relations, public relations and employee relations; (ii) marketing, promoting, and selling of the Program, Interests, vacation ownership interests, programs, or vacation products at other resort condominiums or club resorts, or such other vacation ownership, multisite vacation ownership and membership or exchange plans developed or marketed by Exchange Company or its affiliates from time to time; (iii) or utilizing Use Periods or Exchange Points in manners which will enhance or expand the Program or Affiliate Program; or (iv) the purpose of renting unreserved Use Periods to third parties, the revenue for which shall benefit the Exchange Company.

rubin · 07-10-2010, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by camachinist

OK, here's another nuance I stumbled across in my ungainly way of dealing with life...

I was staring at this the other day...

and I kept thinking "something is wrong here". I should be getting up at 5:30am on *Thursday*, not *Friday* to do my reservations. I did get up on Thursday, to no avail, and again today, equally impotent, but it got me to wondering what had changed.

Apologies to those who have it all figured out, but that screenshot of the inventory release calendar is for "Points Owners and Enrolled Owners" meaning people who have enrolled their weeks in the DC system.

Now, it took awhile for my overheated brain to grasp this, but, apparently, although enrolled owners are still direct competition for reserving at their home resorts, this calendar indicates that they can only make 'exchange requests' for a resort a day after the home resort owners get their chance at making direct reservations. For simplicity, I'm using the 12 month window as the example.

Mull through this and see if it makes sense. Still competition for direct reservations but a day delay for 'reservations' being requested through the internal exchange DCP system.

Clear as mud?

I believe that there are supposed to be two totally separate inventory pools available to weeks and points, so there would not be direct head to head competition between the two groups. The fact that the first day to call in is not always the same for the two groups seems consistent with that sort of a regime, otherwise one group or the other would always have an advantage.

The calendar posted above is for points owners, and enrolled owners who have traded in their weeks for points and are using points to request a reservation. Enrolled owners who are just using their weeks in the "legacy" manner would still call in under the old rules.

Now, the manner in which inventory will be allocated between the two pools, who knows.....

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