Marriott STOLE my TS

[camachinist Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close camachinist]

Interesting point, which had not occurred to me prior....

Once a developer interval successfully passes ROFR into the secondary resale market, it is under waiver permanently?

Hmmm...

I'll have to check our governing documents to verify that. If true (for our resort anyway), that would be exceptionally good news. I have been, perhaps mistakenly, under the impression that every sale, whether a resale or developer interval being sold, was subject to ROFR, regardless of past waiver, if any.

Thanks for that...

Pat

[Dave M Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dave M]

But as we are secondary owners now, ROFR will not be a concern for future resales as primary sale has passed.

Good try, but that's not the way it works. Marriott's ROFR is not a part of the sales contract, it's part of the legal documents to which all owners are subject. Thus, just as there are written rules related to (for example) making reservations, splitting your week and locking off your unit (if you have a lockoff), so, too, there are written rules for the ROFR. All owners at a resort are subject to the same rules. The only difference in owning a resale timeshare versus owning a timeshare purchased from Marriott is that you don't get the Marriott Rewards trading option.

Also, as an owner, the ROFR shouldn't adversely affect you if you decide to sell. It might even help. You'll negotiate the best deal you can with a buyer. Some buyers increase their offer in an effort to avoid ROFR. That possibility can only help you. If Marriott exercises its ROFR, you'll get the same price as you would have from the prospective buyer.

[jaym Member Find all posts View Profile Close jaym]

Interesting point, which had not occurred to me prior....

Once a developer interval successfully passes ROFR into the secondary resale market, it is under waiver permanently?

Hmmm...

I'll have to check our governing documents to verify that. If true (for our resort anyway), that would be exceptionally good news. I have been, perhaps mistakenly, under the impression that every sale, whether a resale or developer interval being sold, was subject to ROFR, regardless of past waiver, if any.

Thanks for that...

Pat

Pat-
I was informed about the removal of ROFR after a Marriott deeded TS property is successfully passed from developer buyer/owner to resale purchaser by agent of our closing company, Timeshare Title, Inc.
I would think Marriott OS should be able to verify as well, yes? Would like to know if your contracts confirm.
From reading previous posts, I understand you bought NCV direct from Marriott? How long ago? So this issue of ROFR "deactivation" not mentioned by sales or anyone else at Marriott during your ownership? Although, I guess it is not exactly something they can't wait to reveal!

[jaym Member Find all posts View Profile Close jaym]

Good try, but that's not the way it works. Marriott's ROFR is not a part of the sales contract, it's part of the legal documents to which all owners are subject. Thus, just as there are written rules related to (for example) making reservations, splitting your week and locking off your unit (if you have a lockoff), so, too, there are written rules for the ROFR. All owners at a resort are subject to the same rules. The only difference in owning a resale timeshare versus owning a timeshare purchased from Marriott is that you don't get the Marriott Rewards trading option.

Also, as an owner, the ROFR shouldn't adversely affect you if you decide to sell. It might even help. You'll negotiate the best deal you can with a buyer. Some buyers increase their offer in an effort to avoid ROFR. That possibility can only help you. If Marriott exercises its ROFR, you'll get the same price as you would have from the prospective buyer.

That's surprising! And I'm feeling dopey about this now.... Is this expressly detailed in the Marriott contracts for all owners, developer or resale buyer? Pat was looking into this ROFR issue as well.
How was this fact revealed to you? Through your own resale or other transaction? Please elaborate.
The ROFR issue was mentioned to me by the closing agent, as I indicated in my post. So the company that conducts closings, and this company does a boatload of Marriott TS closings, is misinforming clients?! That would trouble me but I'll circle back with our agent and discuss further. ask her where she got this info....

JR

[Dave M Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dave M]

Let's try it this way.

The Need for Written Restrictions Impacting Your Ownership
It certainly makes sense for Marriott to record the legal documents that restrict what you can do with your timeshare. If you have a title search done when you buy a timeshare, the search will show that those documents are recorded against your deed. If they weren't, you could pretty much do what you want with your week, no matter what Marriott wants. For example, without those restrictions, you could divide an EY timeshare into two EOY timeshares, with you owning in odd years and a friend of yours owning in even years. However, the rules that Marriott has established and recorded against your deed prevent you from dividing ownership in such a manner.

To ensure that no owner can do something that would be to the detriment of other owners or the developer, condominium and timeshare developers such as Marriott establish a set of rules that will apply to all ownership interests. Those rules are contained in the CC&Rs for all planned unit developments, typically in the master deed provisions, the bylaws for the HOA and various other legal documents. The developer then records those documents against the deed. By law, an owner becomes subject to those rules merely by buying the ownership interest.

ROFR
As for the ROFR, at resorts where it is applicable (that means at all but eight of Marriott's resorts), the provision giving Marriott the right to match a purchase offer is in those documents. Thus, any owner is subject to that rule. If you sell without giving Marriott the right to purchase on the same terms as what you sell for, Marriott has the legal right to refuse to recognize that new owner. If pertinent, I can quote here the applicable language from the legal documents for at least three such Marriott resorts.

My Knowledge
How do I know all of this stuff? I have been on HOA boards for most of the past 32 years. I have been president of various HOA boards for 15 of those 32 years. Along with that volunteer activity comes the responsibility to completely understand the rules and how they apply. As for the Marriott rules, I have been a Marriott owner for over 10 years. Recognizing the importance of those rules and wanting to avoid missteps while taking advantage of the rules where I can, I have devoured those rules. I also have some significant responsibilities for moderating Marriott-related discussions on another forum. Thus, it's important to me to know as much about the Marriott program as I can to be in a position to assist those who have questions or misinformation. Also, although I'm not an attorney, I have significant legal training and experience in my profession, thus making it easier to comprehend the significance of the various legal documents and provisions that govern timeshare ownership.

Getting Your Own Copies of the Documents
All timeshare owners should have copies of those documents. It’s the first place to look when a question arises about use of the timeshare. When buying from the developer, a buyer automatically gets those documents. When buying resale, a buyer should insist that obtaining those documents from the seller be a condition of closing. Unfortunately, not all sellers can remember where they put those important documents or they might have tossed them.

When the seller can’t (or won’t) provide the legal documents, there are at least three alternatives for obtaining them. One is to contact the developer to get them, something I did last year when I purchased a non-Marriott timeshare. Second, arrange for a title search in connection with the closing. A search alone is less expensive than title insurance. The search results should get you a copy of the documents. Third, when staying at the timeshare, visit the local deeds registry and ask for a copy of the documents recorded against your deed. The copying fee will be nominal. (Don’t forget to take a copy of your deed with you to make it easier to find your ownership record!)

[jaym Member Find all posts View Profile Close jaym]

Let's try it this way.

The Need for Written Restrictions Impacting Your Ownership
It certainly makes sense for Marriott to record the legal documents that restrict what you can do with your timeshare. If you have a title search done when you buy a timeshare, the search will show that those documents are recorded against your deed. If they weren't, you could pretty much do what you want with your week, no matter what Marriott wants. For example, without those restrictions, you could divide an EY timeshare into two EOY timeshares, with you owning in odd years and a friend of yours owning in even years. However, the rules that Marriott has established and recorded against your deed prevent you from dividing ownership in such a manner.

To ensure that no owner can do something that would be to the detriment of other owners or the developer, condominium and timeshare developers such as Marriott establish a set of rules that will apply to all ownership interests. Those rules are contained in the CC&Rs for all planned unit developments, typically in the master deed provisions, the bylaws for the HOA and various other legal documents. The developer then records those documents against the deed. By law, an owner becomes subject to those rules merely by buying the ownership interest.

ROFR
As for the ROFR, at resorts where it is applicable (that means at all but eight of Marriott's resorts), the provision giving Marriott the right to match a purchase offer is in those documents. Thus, any owner is subject to that rule. If you sell without giving Marriott the right to purchase on the same terms as what you sell for, Marriott has the legal right to refuse to recognize that new owner. If pertinent, I can quote here the applicable language from the legal documents for at least three such Marriott resorts.

My Knowledge
How do I know all of this stuff? I have been on HOA boards for most of the past 32 years. I have been president of various HOA boards for 15 of those 32 years. Along with that volunteer activity comes the responsibility to completely understand the rules and how they apply. As for the Marriott rules, I have been a Marriott owner for over 10 years. Recognizing the importance of those rules and wanting to avoid missteps while taking advantage of the rules where I can, I have devoured those rules. I also have some significant responsibilities for moderating Marriott-related discussions on another forum. Thus, it's important to me to know as much about the Marriott program as I can to be in a position to assist those who have questions or misinformation. Also, although I'm not an attorney, I have significant legal training and experience in my profession, thus making it easier to comprehend the significance of the various legal documents and provisions that govern timeshare ownership.

Getting Your Own Copies of the Documents
All timeshare owners should have copies of those documents. It’s the first place to look when a question arises about use of the timeshare. When buying from the developer, a buyer automatically gets those documents. When buying resale, a buyer should insist that obtaining those documents from the seller be a condition of closing. Unfortunately, not all sellers can remember where they put those important documents or they might have tossed them.

When the seller can’t (or won’t) provide the legal documents, there are at least three alternatives for obtaining them. One is to contact the developer to get them, something I did last year when I purchased a non-Marriott timeshare. Second, arrange for a title search in connection with the closing. A search alone is less expensive than title insurance. The search results should get you a copy of the documents. Third, when staying at the timeshare, visit the local deeds registry and ask for a copy of the documents recorded against your deed. The copying fee will be nominal. (Don’t forget to take a copy of your deed with you to make it easier to find your ownership record!)

Sound advice. Will check with closing agent on docs.
Would you know the 8 Marriott resorts that do not require ROFR? Just curious as to where they reserve interest.

[Dave M Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Dave M]

The eight resorts without ROFR provisions are....

Marriott's Desert Springs Villas • MDS (However, Desert Springs Villas II does have an ROFR policy.)
Marriott's Harbour Point • HPS
Marriott's Heritage Club at Harbour Town • MHG
Marriott's Monarch at Sea Pines • MMS
Marriott's Royal Palms • MRP
Marriott's Streamside (Birch, Cedar, Douglas) • MVB, MCD, MDO
Marriott's Summit Watch • MSW
Marriott's Sunset Pointe • MSN

All of them are older resorts. All new resorts include the ROFR.

[Steamboat Bill Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Steamboat Bill]

I just spoke with Tracy Wetterberg at GMAC Real Estate and she is faxing the letter to me.

She also want me to tell everyone that GMAC is NOT TimesharesOnly....they just use them for lsitings.

I am in the process of locating a MMC as I only want to trade for 2 BDR rooms.

[I-DE-HO Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close I-DE-HO]

I just spoke with Tracy Wetterberg at GMAC Real Estate and she is faxing the letter to me.

She also want me to tell everyone that GMAC is NOT TimesharesOnly....they just use them for lsitings.

I am in the process of locating a MMC as I only want to trade for 2 BDR rooms.

Have you contacted Seth Nock? He is a highly respected broker and knows what you have to offer to get by ROFR w/Marriott.

Call him with any questions (212)677-7636, cell (917)482-8347. Licensed Broker, Seth Nock / Selling Timeshares INC
Web page link: http://www.sellingtimeshares.net
Contact: Seth Nock at sethnock@hotmail.com Phone: (212)677-7636 (TUG Member, Broker/Agent)

Phil

[jaym Member Find all posts View Profile Close jaym]

I just spoke with Tracy Wetterberg at GMAC Real Estate and she is faxing the letter to me.

She also want me to tell everyone that GMAC is NOT TimesharesOnly....they just use them for lsitings.

I am in the process of locating a MMC as I only want to trade for 2 BDR rooms.

I know you are already working with a broker, but just in case you are interested, this is the site I used to find my recent MMC purchase (although closing almost completed, my listing is still there - #16379 @ 1st offer$).

There are other MMC as well and a few MSE on this site. Check it out

http://www.vacationtimesharerentals.com/United-States/Timeshares/Virginia/Williamsburg/Marriott's-Manor-Club-at-Ford's-Colony/

[Steamboat Bill Banned Find all posts View Profile Close Steamboat Bill]

Just received the faxed ROFR from Marriott and it looks real.

[GrayFal Silver Contributor and supermoderator Find all posts View Profile Close GrayFal]

The eight resorts without ROFR provisions are....

Marriott's Desert Springs Villas • MDS (However, Desert Springs Villas II does have an ROFR policy.)
Marriott's Harbour Point • HPS
Marriott's Heritage Club at Harbour Town • MHG
Marriott's Monarch at Sea Pines • MMS
Marriott's Royal Palms • MRP
Marriott's Streamside (Birch, Cedar, Douglas) • MVB, MCD, MDO
Marriott's Summit Watch • MSW
Marriott's Sunset Pointe • MSN

All of them are older resorts. All new resorts include the ROFR.

Apparently Marriott Fairway Villas at Seaview does not have ROFR...just sold my Gold weeks - this was verified by both Marriott ROFR unit and our 'friend' who sells for Marriott - it could ave something to do with being in New Jersey that has many different regulations/laws related to TSs.

[camachinist Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close camachinist]

I hate governing documents books; they give me a headache. Remember that statement, Dave?

OK, I'll type the verbage from my book, which is for NCV (Newport Coast); part 13.6, page 75....

Right of First Refusal

If a Residential Owner desires to sell, convey, or otherwise transfer ownership of his Project Condominium and such Residential Owner receives an offer to purchase such Project Condominium which he or she desires to accept the Residential Owner, prior to accepting such an offer, shall notify Declarant <MVCI> and provide Declarant with a copy or summary of offer received. Declarant shall then have the right and option to purchase the Project Condominium at the same price on the same terms as set forth in the Purchase Offer. If Declarant elects to purchase the Project Condominium as provided herin, such election shall be made by written notice, sent to the Residential Onwer within fifteen (15) days following receipt by Declarant of the Residential Owner's notice. Such notice from Declarant shall be deemed to create a binding contract between the Residential Owner and Declarant to purchase the Project Condominium in accordance with the terms and provisions of the written offer to purchase the Residential Owner's Project Condominium. If Declarant does not notify the Residential Owner of its election to purchase the Project Condominium within such fifteen (15) day period, the Residential Owner shall thereafter be free to sell the Project Condominium to the person or entity submitting the purchase offer in accordance with the terms and provisions of the purchase offer.

Section 13.7 goes on to talk about Notification of Sale and a statement by the transferee that they have received a number of documents, including the Governing documents and that they agree to be bound by them. I'll include that text when the numbness in my fingers subsides

At this juncture, my governing documents support Dave's position. Now it's time for a drink...

Pat

[camachinist Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close camachinist]

From reading previous posts, I understand you bought NCV direct from Marriott? How long ago? So this issue of ROFR "deactivation" not mentioned by sales or anyone else at Marriott during your ownership?

Yes, we did everything that a smart timeshare owner would never do . Developer, finance, multiple weeks.... only saving grace is we bought a dynamite location when sales were soft (after 9/11) and one where construction was to be going on for a decade after initial sales started.

The only things mentioned by anyone during the sales process were points, money, location, vacation and location again

That said, NCV has given us some great vacations (and a few not so great times, which I've chronicled here, at Redweek and on TUG) and should return most of our capital when we move onto other things in a couple of years.

I still have my Governing Documents book with that pretty vinyl portfolio each new owner gets, including the II wish book So, our lucky buyer will get all the bad news, down to the last detail

Pat