Fairfield/Wyndham resorts denial of usage

[mshatty Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close mshatty]

I am sure doing some listening!

I added up the value of my weeks in Fairshare points:

1 bedroom (never seen this unit): Upper level worth 231,000 (maybe a deluxe, which would be worth 266,000)
2 bedroom deluxe, upper level: 325,000
3 bedroom deluxe, upper level: 500,000

I think upper level is a pain in the back, lugging suitcases up a flight of stairs, but hey, if they give more points, what the heck?

Those are the Bali Hai
2 bedroom Shearwater is worth 308,000 because it is a lower level, but it is a Shearwater, so maybe it is presidential?

That is a total of about 1,364,000 points. That is a lot of points, but we won't do it anyway. If I resold all those points, I would not get what we paid for the weeks at the 1-2 cents per point they go for on ebay. Add in the cost of conversion, and it is a much worse deal for us. Gee, I feel so badly that we will have to let down another salesperson.

Cindy,

Something to think about is that currently, FF owners are renting out their annual points for $6 to $7 per 1,000 points.

[CC_dad Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close CC_dad]

Also sent you a PM

Cindy,

The conversion process doesn't mean you surrender the weeks to FF permanently. You don't "trade" these deeded weeks for a FF UDI FSP points contract, you only agree to "assign" the use of the Bali Hai weeks to FF each year in exchange for FSP points. This may be the FF equivalent to what you were trying to do with an RCI points conversion - but the BH sales people wouldn't allow it. You can cancel the FF "assignment" contract by notifying FF in the future.

You still own the Bali Hai weeks and can sell them for what they are worth as fixed or floating deeded weeks on the open market.

If FF only offered an "equity trade" of your deeds for a FF FSP UDI deed, then I would agree that you should pass it up no matter what the offer.

If you decide to convert the weeks for FSP points but you want to occupy the Bali Hai unit(s) instead in any year, you simply "reserve" the unit with FF using the FSP points assigned before the 10 month window of the stated week's occupancy date.

Mike hit on a very good point. If your average MF cost per thousand FSP points is less than $6 (e.g. the total MFs on these BH units is less than $8,000 per year ), then you can always rent any excess FF FSP points to other FF owners and make a bundle! Some owners rent out their FF FSP points until it reimburses their total MFs paid for the year, then travel for free with whatever FF FSP points are left over.

You can also make small FF FSP points deposits into RCI and be a timeshare traveler for 4 - 6 months out of the year in retirement. A million FF FSP points stretches into lot of RCI weeks if you ever wanted to try that route.

Keep an open mind - it depends on their offer and what the costs are. You may find you're in the driver's seat here - especially if you can get VIP Platinum status guaranteed as part of any transaction.

[shopgirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close shopgirl]

Okay, so what is VIP status and what will that do for me? How is a VIP member treated differently from just a regular ol' member? Can resale buyers of points be VIP?

Also, can Fairshare owners reserve anything from Wyndham with points and then rent out those weeks on redweek? Isn't that considered an exchange? That is not okay with RCI, so why does Fairshare allow that? If that is the case, I would bet my weeks I have for rent are going to get some competition.

Hatrack told me a year or so ago that Fairfield was a difficult program to understand, but it might work for us, once I figured it out. I obviously have the time (but little money).

If they make a deal that sounds good, will they allow me to wait until I can pay cash for it, like next fall, or will they say, "the deal is only good for today?"

If Mike's numbers are correct, we would have a lot of points. We own all upper-level units at Bali Hai and both the two and three bedrooms do qualify as deluxe. I don't know about the one bedroom. The PAHIO Shearwater unit is only a lower level unit, but I would bet that would be a higher level of unit, maybe the presidential. Those have been sold out for about three years.

The maintenance fees for all those units are close to $4K! I would love to figure out how to use points to my advantage.

I will go to the presentation with my eyes opened and my mind somewhat open too. This is a very new concept for us. I just got involved with RCI points 1 1/2 years ago and have been happy so far. Time will tell.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

.. I was assured this package would get me 1 week at MOST resorts, which seemed to fit my plan at the time

Although I like to say the saleperson are lying, if you just want to use 1 BD, it is right assumption. And if you are in East coast, it may fit 2 BD in most of the case. The problem in west coast is that most of FF resorts there is newly developed and that requires higher points, and for the resorts that require lower points, they usually have very limit number of units. But if you look into directory, you will see something like 5 or 10 resorts in west coast. At end, there are only 3 area in the West coast that you can get enough units to support it. Pagosa, Sedona, and Las Vagas. And if you need 2 Bd, It leaves you only Pagosa.

Most owners like to do search themselves first. Although FF's computer system is one of the worse, you can still do that. I usually looking at the area I am interested with the time I am willing to accept to start with, and pick only 1 day (usually in the middle of the week). To start my search. I usually pick like 13 month, 10 month, 6 month, 3 month 4 time slots to do the check. 13,10,3 is the start of the reservation period. 6 is the time DW usually can confirm where she wants to really go. I am not VIP and don't believe I need that many points, so 60 day or less mean nothing to me. By looking at 90 days, I believe I have advantage over people that depend on VIP discount period. But if you are thinking about VIP. Since I am more perfer to drive when I take TS vacation (make less expensive and don't need to complicate my vacation by trying to figure out the airline, unless it is FL, since my area usually have cheap FL airline ticket), I can take anything that start from any day. You may want to start that way.

FF does deposit a lot into RCI, thus you have very good chance to deposit a small amount of points and get one you like. However, most of the deposit is in East coast where they starts their TS. Sound like you only want the FL in that case. You can try to catch some bulk space bank. especially now FF is working on HI, they may do that most of the time until they sell enough. But if you have anything in mind, just post it here, and make sure you post at least 15 posts. I believe there are quite a few people willing to help you when they do their RCI search and let you know there is some available. And you may want to take Dave's offer so you can get some comfortable to start your own RCI explore.

Jya-Ning

[mshatty Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close mshatty]

Cindy,

My answers are in red

Okay, so what is VIP status and what will that do for me? VIP status is a developer benefit only. How is a VIP member treated differently from just a regular ol' member? There are 3 levels, VIP (300k), Gold VIP (500k) and Platinum VIP (1,000k). Depending on the level, you get unlimited housekeeping, free guest certificates, discounts on reservations 60, 45, or 30 days before checking, free unit upgrades if available, and a free newspaper, VIP check in lines at resorts, and additional ability to reserve other resorts other than your home resort at 11 months prior to check in. There are probably others that I left out. Can resale buyers of points be VIP? According to FF/Wyn's directory, no.

Also, can Fairshare owners reserve anything from Wyndham with points and then rent out those weeks on redweek? Yes. Isn't that considered an exchange? No. That is not okay with RCI, so why does Fairshare allow that? Because you own points instead of a fixed/floating week. You can reserve a week anywhere in the FF/Wyn resorts (even assosiate or affiliated resorts) and rent them out if you can. If that is the case, I would bet my weeks I have for rent are going to get some competition.

Hatrack told me a year or so ago that Fairfield was a difficult program to understand, but it might work for us, once I figured it out. I obviously have the time (but little money). Actually, it can be very simple if you are just reserving units at other FF/Wyn resorts. The fun and sophistication is in the exchange world of RCI and II. It looks like Pahio will be RCI affiliated. This is good because the FF/Wyn owner has more control over the type of exchange week that is deposited with RCI.

If they make a deal that sounds good, will they allow me to wait until I can pay cash for it, like next fall, or will they say, "the deal is only good for today?" They will probably say that, but the deal will probably always be there. Just call the sales office later.

Another feature that you would get is called "Plus Partners". This is an account feature, not a VIP benefit. Plus Partners allows you to book RCI point resorts through FF/Wyn for week or less stays. It also allows you to use the Plus Partners to use the points to book hotels, airlines, etc. just like the RCI points. But understand, this is NOT a RCI point account. You have access to the RCI point resorts. The FF/Wyn points needed to book a RCI point resort is based on a fixed schedule depending on season and unit size.

If Mike's numbers are correct, we would have a lot of points. We own all upper-level units at Bali Hai and both the two and three bedrooms do qualify as deluxe. I don't know about the one bedroom. The PAHIO Shearwater unit is only a lower level unit, but I would bet that would be a higher level of unit, maybe the presidential. Those have been sold out for about three years.

The maintenance fees for all those units are close to $4K! I would love to figure out how to use points to my advantage. The maintenance fees are high. It would take about 600k FSP points to cover if you were renting the points for $7 per 1,000 points. In this case, you may have to reserve and rent the units directly if that would bring more $$.

I will go to the presentation with my eyes opened and my mind somewhat open too. This is a very new concept for us. I just got involved with RCI points 1 1/2 years ago and have been happy so far. Time will tell.

Don't let them force you into anything. You can bring the offer back here and we can help you analyze it. Good luck.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

Cindy:

You have enough points if you decide to do conversion to become Plantimun VIP. If the offer price is good in your range, I will do that. I don't believe any program that claim they will pay in advance and will be good for your lifetime. And when you convert the week, a lot depends on the MF of underline units. Thus, it is very hard process to give valuation of how much it woth, so I will not do that. All I know is from 13 to 10 month, your current week/unit (if it is fixed) is yours for you to take. And you have all the fexibility added. Plus now you will has access to RCI point inventory. But I don't know if they will let you convert or just let you do PIC. If they let you do PIC, it will not worth it.

Okay, so what is VIP status and what will that do for me? How is a VIP member treated differently from just a regular ol' member? Can resale buyers of points be VIP?

It will let you be able to use FF as hotel, and give you some advatage when you make rserevation against no-home owner. VIP owner claims they get better treated. I have no idea about how the different could be in USA. Resell can not get you to VIP. Buy in this case, you bought before FF took over, it may, so you need to make sure if you decide to convert, the Plantimun VIP will be in the contract.

Also, can Fairshare owners reserve anything from Wyndham with points and then rent out those weeks on redweek? Isn't that considered an exchange? That is not okay with RCI, so why does Fairshare allow that?

Not Wyndham, just inside FF you can do that. It is like you own a floating unit in one resort that may have 2 or 3 different building but you can get any unit in any building, and you can rent it out at anytime. It is considered your home. That is one main difference between a mini system and exchange company. Unless you think nobody should rent out their own unit.

Hatrack told me a year or so ago that Fairfield was a difficult program to understand, but it might work for us, once I figured it out. I obviously have the time (but little money).

If they make a deal that sounds good, will they allow me to wait until I can pay cash for it, like next fall, or will they say, "the deal is only good for today?"

They will say it is good for today. But it depends. I got an offer where I can put down a % of purchase, get 0% interest for 6 month from FF. Conversion offer usually good for at this moment it is good for going

I don't believe if you just want to use the system to make a simple reservation, it will be hard. It will be hard when you try to figure how to best get your value. But you should not have problem.

If Mike's numbers are correct, we would have a lot of points. We own all upper-level units at Bali Hai and both the two and three bedrooms do qualify as deluxe. I don't know about the one bedroom. The PAHIO Shearwater unit is only a lower level unit, but I would bet that would be a higher level of unit, maybe the presidential. Those have been sold out for about three years.

The maintenance fees for all those units are close to $4K! I would love to figure out how to use points to my advantage.

I will go to the presentation with my eyes opened and my mind somewhat open too. This is a very new concept for us. I just got involved with RCI points 1 1/2 years ago and have been happy so far. Time will tell.

Again, make sure everything is in writing.

Jya-Ning

[shopgirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close shopgirl]

Thanks Mike, CC Dad and Jya Ning! I appreciate all your help. We plan to take our laptop with us to Shearwater next month, so I will probably have questions after they talk to us. Rick will definitely have some questions, too. We are going to Shearwater again in March of next year. Gotta love those exchanges! We have not used any of our four weeks yet!

VIP Platinum sounds great! Would our guests be treated that well? All of our kids are on our deeds, so I would think they could also be considered VIP platinum.

What if you went to ebay and purchased another bunch of points, would those also be VIP Platinum because you are already at that level?

The one thing I am sure about, they are going to want us to buy another week and the price at PAHIO is very high!

We do have three red RCI weeks, all three are summer weeks in the Colorado Rockies. We decided to PFD the weeks for next year and already did that, but we can decide what we want to do with them each year. They should qualify for the Fairshare program, I would think.

We will see what they have to say. This may be a moot point. The one thing I know about PAHIO, they don't give anything away! Wyndham-Fairshare is probably no different. I remember thinking that maybe we could buy an EOY one bedroom from them last year, just to get all of our weeks in RCI points, but the price was incredibly high for an EOY and they still were not willing to convert all of our weeks, no matter what. I got the impression we would have to buy four weeks to convert all four of our weeks. This is more what I am expecting them to say. I don't think anything will be handed over, unfortunately.

I have been saying all along that PAHIO would not convert our resale weeks to RCI points. This is true. At the sales table, they would not even consider the possibility. But when I said something on TUG and then on PAHIO's Yahoo Usergroup, a salesperson emailed me privately and offered to convert all of our weeks for $3K. This was after the Wyndham takeover. We had decided not to convert after that fiasco at PAHIO because we already had Australia points and I have figured out how to use the points we have to our best advantage. We have been renting out our PAHIO weeks and have not stayed in our own units yet. I saw no need to convert them, and the MF cost per point is not that great--about 1 cent pp.

[mshatty Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close mshatty]

What if you went to ebay and purchased another bunch of points, would those also be VIP Platinum because you are already at that level?

Cindy,

If you reach a VIP level with FF/Wyn, you can add resale points and they will share in the same VIP benefits that you have. You just can't use them to reach another VIP level. For example, if you were a regular VIP (300k) and purchased 200k resale and now have 500k points, you would still be a regular VIP and not a Gold VIP (500k points).

As for your family, you can get the discount point reservations for guests, but not the unit upgrades.

[Jya-Ning Silver Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close Jya-Ning]

As for your family, you can get the discount point reservations for guests, but not the unit upgrades.

Just one correction. The unit upgrade is good for the family. It is not good for guest (renter) though. So adopted kid with different family name may have problem.

Jya-Ning

[mshatty Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close mshatty]

Cindy,

One thing that Fairfield/Wyn will do is allow you to use non-Fairfield/Wyn weeks to put into it's PIC (Personal Interval Choice) program to get points. You have to buy at least a small retail point package from FF/Wyn. You keep your weeks but if you want points, you can deposit them with FF/Wyn to get points. You have one year from the deposit date to use them.

I think that FF/Wyn is now limiting the number of weeks you can PIC to two.? (Other FF owners please correct me) Normally, the best week to PIC is a red 3 or 4 BR week. It is a way to get to the upper VIP levels without having to buy all of the points directly from FF/Wyn.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

The web is being spun

Cindy - Be careful. The sales weasels can spin webs that somehow make it all sound like a reasonable deal yet the bottom line is you are paying up to tens of thousands of dollars to convert what you already own to points while you could simply go out and buy the same points outright for maybe a few thousand. The VIP just isn't worth the difference (but they sure will try to make it sound like it is). Also VIP is not a guaranteed benefit - they can and have changed it on a whim so never pay extra simply to obtain that. We have come close a few times to making a purchase until I actually sat down with the resale prices in front of me and knew that VIP cannot be worth the equivalent of over 12 annual fees.

Bottom line on Wyndham Points is that the developer has chosen to purposely devalue resales while trying to make retail the attractive choice. The reverse has occurred and resale is the only sensible way financially to buy into the otherwise excellent Wyndham Points program. They have also made it one of the best bargains in timeshare at resale prices while it nearly qualifies as a ripoff at developer prices that they have guaranteed will be devalued by at least 60% when the rescind period ends. Someday the general puplic will wake up to this and they will be forced to narrow the gap between resale and retail to a reasonable level. Until then don't get sucked into a poor deal and do take advantage of the amazing value that is Wyndham Points at resale prices.

[taffy19 Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close taffy19]

It is great to see all the help other FF owners are giving here....and FF sounds like a great product.
You certainly get quite a gang for your buck with your ownership CC_dad.

Carol C, are ya listening

Yes, the help here is absolutely wonderful but how many FF owners deal with the same frustration the OP has experienced so far? It sounds very complicated to me how to use these points.

I like the idea that everything is calculated in point values and that they are in the open for everyone to see. No hidden exchange values here like with the week-based system.

What I don't like is that they make you believe that you are buying a resort at one place but in reality you get a complete different resort, especially if you are buying with the intention of visiting there most often because you have to commit yourself so long in advance one way or the other.

I still believe that Hyatt Resorts have the best plan of all because you know exactly what condo you bought and will occupy at your resort (like fixed units used to be) so don't have to worry about getting a view or not but you still have the chance to exchange internally (like the floating system today) with the Hyatt system with points that are in the open which make it easy to calculate the value. All floating systems depend on availability as that is not known in advance unless you bought a fixed week.

Instead of points, why don't the developers just deal with cash? They could give you a credit in your account with them. This will deal with inflation for everyone the same and you can spend it any way you want. That would be so much simpler.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

You'll have the Ridge of Doom Penthouse if you act now

Yes, the help here is absolutely wonderful but how many FF owners deal with the same frustration the OP has experienced so far? It sounds very complicated to me how to use these points.

I like the idea that everything is calculated in point values and that they are in the open for everyone to see. No hidden exchange values here like with the week-based system.

What I don't like is that they make you believe that you are buying a resort at one place but in reality you get a complete different resort, especially if you are buying with the intention of visiting there most often because you have to commit yourself so long in advance one way or the other.

I still believe that Hyatt Resorts have the best plan of all because you know exactly what condo you bought and will occupy at your resort (like fixed units used to be) so don't have to worry about getting a view or not but you still have the chance to exchange internally (like the floating system today) with the Hyatt system with points that are in the open which make it easy to calculate the value. All floating systems depend on availability as that is not known in advance unless you bought a fixed week.

Instead of points, why don't the developers just deal with cash? They could give you a credit in your account with them. This will deal with inflation for everyone the same and you can spend it any way you want. That would be so much simpler.

Emmy - Wyndham is no different than Hyatt. You get a deed for a specific resort and preference for that resort. What does happen, and I doubt Hyatt is immune, is that sales are ramped up for a popular location and it sells out. So they continue to sell but, if you listen, the home base is at another resort. it is at least a little underhanded but hey, these are weasels we're talking about not choirboys. The paperwork will clearly state it as well. So the buyer is seeing what he likes and hearing what he wants to hear ("You'll own at the Ridge of Doom in Lake Too Deepa but since it's all points you can easily reserve here at Grande Mucho Villas at the 10 month mark. And fees there are lower too!") If they pay any attention they would know that the owners get a 13 month period to reserve and if demand is too great there won't be anything left for the owners at the Doom. But then again if they were thinking this through why are they buying retail? Most of the complaints are because sales pitches twist things, people only half listen and very few do their homework until after its too late. Wyndham is a great system, so flexible it can be confusing and almost always a much better value purchased resale by informed buyers. But what timeshare can't that be said about?

[taffy19 Gold Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close taffy19]

Thank you, John. If you buy re-sale points on eBay, do you know what resort you are buying at? Is that listed and all the extra fees too?

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Thank you, John. If you buy re-sale points on eBay, do you know what resort you are buying at? Is that listed and all the extra fees too?

Yes, it should tell you what resort and what the annual fees are. What extra fees? You get an annual bill that covers the resort fees and taxes and a fee based on the number of points you own for the club operation. There are no other extras unless you mean closing costs that would apply to any resort.