The Manhattan Club: who needs a crossover grid?

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

It is interesting to find two different threads on TUG describing the Manhattan Club.

The first thread describes tons of availability for next January and February in studio and one bedroom units. But, it is only in RCI Points.

The second thread asks the question about whether or not the annual bulkbanking for Jan-Mar has occurred yet for the Manhattan Club.

It seems to me that it would be impossible to have all of those specific owners converting simultaneously without some additional impetus. Perhaps RCI offered Manhattan Club customers a one-time opportunity to convert enmass. Even then, it would seem unusual for everyone to convert.

Maybe RCI is experimenting to see what it will take to get entire resorts to convert over all at once. This would be the smartest move RCI could make to transition customers off of the weeks system and into the points system.

Just target all of the most desirable resorts and offer them a sweetheart deal to convert all at once.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

''Strong arm'' is a more fitting term than ''transition''.

I suspect that these hardball tactics will also help transition some erstwhile RCI members over to independent exchange companies. I just heard from someone who knew them of a couple of September Allen House owners who reacted just that way to RCI's machinations. And while Manhattan Club is indeed a highly sought after resort, Allen House probably tops it.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Lets compare

Given the right opportunity which would you pick?

1) Join the largest exchange company in the world with the greatest number of locations that offers a new and more flexible method of exchange for $500 - $1000. This also happens to be endorsed by your resort group.

2) Locate a third party exchange with greatly reduced number of exchange opportunities that your resort not only may not endorse but may actually dispute your right to use (you do have that right - I'm merely pointing out the potential for a problem) that does things as in the past - fixed week for week trades. Of course you may not be happy with that type of trade which is one of the reasons you are out "shopping" for a new service. But it may be lower cost.

Hmmm. This is a tough one to decide. Maybe I'll go stick my head in the sand for awhile and see if the old way still looks as good as ever.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Given the right opportunity which would you pick?

1) Join the largest exchange company in the world with the greatest number of locations that offers a new and more flexible method of exchange for $500 - $1000. This also happens to be endorsed by your resort group.

2) Locate a third party exchange with greatly reduced number of exchange opportunities that your resort not only may not endorse but may actually dispute your right to use (you do have that right - I'm merely pointing out the potential for a problem) that does things as in the past - fixed week for week trades. Of course you may not be happy with that type of trade which is one of the reasons you are out "shopping" for a new service. But it may be lower cost.

Hmmm. This is a tough one to decide. Maybe I'll go stick my head in the sand for awhile and see if the old way still looks as good as ever.

What if option 1) were free for the first year?

Just target the prime week owners at the most desirable resorts. They would be able to get 2, 3, 4, maybe 5 exchanges where in the past they could only get 1 or 2.

They would get a healthy point allocation, they would be able to access any points inventory and any weeks inventory. Why would they say 'no'?

RCI could just limit the trades to 7-night stays so everything remains a week for week trade. And, they could disallow any points partner exchanges.

For those who don't like this and go to the independents, all power to them.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Read California timeshare industry veteran Byron Wiegand's article ''Points Revisited'' in Timesharing Today. Wiegand early on took a ''wait and see'' attitude toward RCI Points, but now says the jury is in and it is thumbs down.
He reports that in California the incidence of resorts switching to RCI Points has virtually ground to a halt, with the overwhelming majority of resorts remaining firmly in the Weeks camp. He also says that the points conversion brokers were getting out of the business because once they reached the people susceptible to conversion, the remainder were simply not interested.

Personally, I give a lot more credence to Wiegand's observations than to your theories.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Read California timeshare industry veteran Byron Wiegand's article ''Points Revisited'' in Timesharing Today. Wiegand early on took a ''wait and see'' attitude toward RCI Points, but now says the jury is in and it is thumbs down.
He reports that in California the incidence of resorts switching to RCI Points has virtually ground to a halt, with the overwhelming majority of resorts remaining firmly in the Weeks camp. He also says that the points conversion brokers were getting out of the business because once they reached the people susceptible to conversion, the remainder were simply not interested.

Personally, I give a lot more credence to Wiegand's observations than to your theories.

To each his own. I trust my own observations.

By the way, I don't like RCI Points anymore either. I prefer the other mini-point systems more.

I am just making an observation of what they could do to improve their system should they choose to do so.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

To each his own. I trust my own observations.

By the way, I don't like RCI Points anymore either. I prefer the other mini-point systems more.

I am just making an observation of what they could do to improve their system should they choose to do so.

Absolutely.

What a person shoild do is find an ownership vehicle that allows them to get the unit they want with the fewest hurdles.

1. If you want to visit the same resort at the same time each year, find a resort you like that uses a fixed week system.
   
2. If you want to visit the same resort, but not be tied down to a specific week, buy at a floating resort that you like.
   
3. If you want to visit different locations and you can find a mini-sytem that overlays well with the places you want to visit, buy into that group.
   
4. If you want to visit multiple locations and you want to have flexibility to change unit size or length of stay by reserving in higher or lower demand period, then buy into a resort group that operates as a mini-point or quasi-point system.

All of the above will enable you to make the travel plans you want, with a minimum of hassle, with enough lead time to get effective use of frequent flyer miles or other travel programs, and totally eliminate exchange fees.

Buy a unit primarily for trading purposes only if one of the methods above won't meet your needs.

Do you see what's happening here? As resort groups expand, the need for exchange companies becomes less. And most of the new inventory being added is associated with resort groups.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Look at the money not the soothsayers

Read California timeshare industry veteran Byron Wiegand's article ''Points Revisited'' in Timesharing Today. Wiegand early on took a ''wait and see'' attitude toward RCI Points, but now says the jury is in and it is thumbs down.
He reports that in California the incidence of resorts switching to RCI Points has virtually ground to a halt, with the overwhelming majority of resorts remaining firmly in the Weeks camp. He also says that the points conversion brokers were getting out of the business because once they reached the people susceptible to conversion, the remainder were simply not interested.

Personally, I give a lot more credence to Wiegand's observations than to your theories.

Depending on the very folks who either enjoyed or worked in the old model for information about the new model may reinforce your desire to have things stay the same but little for gaining fact based knowledge. If you asked the US or European auto worker of the 60's if Japan or even the Far East was a threat do you think they would have replied "of course"? More recently did Kodak think that film sales would tank in under 5 years after nearly 100 of steady growth? Yet those groups obviously thought they were going to be untouched or the market would simply grow larger. They made at best feeble attempts to compete with new, more nimble competitors with their all new systems and plants as well as less expensive labor. The "wisdom" from the management and pundits of the times steered them as far off course as simply trying to dismiss alternate exchange models will do for owners today. Nothing wrong with staying a weeks only person just don't expect the rest of the world to do the same. You can still take a traditional film picture but it's getting harder and harder to buy cameras and film. That is the path week for week trades will continue to see - slowly disappearing.

The handwriting is on the wall that points based timesharing is the new choice of buyers and remember they pay the frieght for the growth of the industry. While many older owners and resorts may resist that move they will eventually be outnumbered no matter what they decide to do. RCI and the other points systems don't need the old timers to convert to be successful as new sales assure that. It is only a question of how many current owners stay in fixed weeks only or choose to join in the brave new world. Based on the BBS posts and what I've seen at my 7 resorts a majority will eventually decide to take the new road. I'll bet that is a closer sample to the general timeshare population than a few small resorts on the US coasts for the direction things are going. Add in that the big money players are all in points and you have a winner.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Depending on the very folks who either enjoyed or worked in the old model for information about the new model may reinforce your desire to have things stay the same but little for gaining fact based knowledge....

Yeah - that's like the folks who told Digital and Wang in the 1980's that they didn't have to worry about PC's because DEC and Wang supplied work stations, not computers.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Yeah - that's like the folks who told Digital and Wang in the 1980's that they didn't have to worry about PC's because DEC and Wang supplied work stations, not computers.

The next post will probably have New Coke or Enron in it.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

This ''new technology'' argument ignores the history of timesharing.

Points actually came first, with Swiss-based Hapimag. Their competitors in France came out with the weeks-based system in competition and ate Hapimag's lunch. Head to head in the market, the new weeks model beat the stuffings out of the older points model, and it was the more succesful weeks model that crossed the Atlantic to the US. Hapimag was and is what many today call a mini-system.

Fast forward quite a few years, and a former South African loan shark tweaks the Hapimag model to come up with the first multi-developer points system. Several points vultures descend on the South African market offering points schemes, but most timesharers remain in weeks-based timeshare.

One of the larger points operators in South Africa helps bring the multi-developoer points model to Europe. Again most timesharers remain in the tried and true weeks model. Other points operations are started in Europe, but most timesharers remain in weeks.

Several US mini-systems see the potential to squeeze some extra money out of their members and start points systems here. Then a major exchange companies sees the same dollar signs and jumps in.

Points is NOT a new product. Only through pressure of big operators, and rigging the system, does it make any showing at all against the weeks model which beats the stuffing out of points models on a level playing field. Only by tilting the playing field does RCI or any mini-system make a points product competitive.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

New Coke failed but sales of soda climbed

The next post will probably have New Coke or Enron in it.

Thats possible but in both cases it's looking at a specific brand name or company not the overall market. Who can say for sure if RCI Points will be wildly successful over time or be abandoned? I'd guess # 1 but it's only a guess. But I am sure that points based trades will dominate exchange programs (if they don't already) when all the minisystems are included. And they must be as they are the growth side of timeshare not the onesey twosey 30 unit conversions of 20 years ago. For the timeshare exchange market, meaning using more than just your one "home resort" that even points may be based on, points is the winner. Up next rentals as the primary means of exchange? Could be but it is a long way off.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Sunterra was one of the very first mini-systems to switch to points, and they started selling that in Europe before the US. Even after all the years of selling only points to new buyers and beating on their existing members to switch to points, I find it very interesting that the majority of Sunterra members in Europe are STILL weeks-based rather than points-based (see www.vogas.org ). That speaks volumes on the market resistance to points. It tends to confirm Wiegand's observations on RCI Points.

And, BTW, you are wrong in trying to write off Byron Wiegand as just hung up on the ''old'' model. When RCI Points first came out, he wrote an aritcle for Timesharing Today, that while taking a ''wait and see'' position, was actually considerably more favorable than unfavorable toward RCI Points. After seeing it in operation, he came to the conclusion that it was a dog.

Thats possible but in both cases it's looking at a specific brand name or company not the overall market. Who can say for sure if RCI Points will be wildly successful over time or be abandoned? I'd guess # 1 but it's only a guess. But I am sure that points based trades will dominate exchange programs (if they don't already) when all the minisystems are included. And they must be as they are the growth side of timeshare not the onesey twosey 30 unit conversions of 20 years ago. For the timeshare exchange market, meaning using more than just your one "home resort" that even points may be based on, points is the winner. Up next rentals as the primary means of exchange? Could be but it is a long way off.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Sunterra was one of the very first mini-systems to switch to points, and they started selling that in Europe before the US. Even after all the years of selling only points to new buyers and beating on their existing members to switch to points, I find it very interesting that the majority of Sunterra members in Europe are STILL weeks-based rather than points-based (see www.vogas.org ). That speaks volumes on the market resistance to points. It tends to confirm Wiegand's observations on RCI Points.

Funny, though, that in the US almost all of Sunterra's current sales are in Points. If Sunterra's experience with Points was so bad, why did they make Points their primary sales vehicle?

Virtually every resort group - and resort goups represent most current timeshare sales - have some kind of system that reveals to owners what their ownership is worth for internal trading and what is required to trade into other units. Some do it numerically with points. Some do it with ascending categories of ownership. Some do it by creating internal trading blocks - if your ownership is in a given block you can book at or trade for any other resort in your block.

None of them do it by telling owners, "Hand in your week, put in a request, and we'll tell you at some point whether or not your wish will be granted." I really don't think there is overwhelming demand for that type of exchange system that is being overlooked by every single major developer out there.

You can call it points, you can call it jewels, you can call it aardvaarks, Trading currency by any other name is still trading currency. And by far the majority of current timeshare sales is for ownerships that come with a defined trading currency.

I find it very hard to believe that every major resort developer has overlooked an overwhelming demand by prospects to provide weeks stripped of any explicit trading currency value. To the contrary, I think it's a lot easier for the sales force to show prospects a matrix that tells them exactly what they can reserve at what times of year with the various ownership options. You know, something that looks like this.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Read my post. Sunterra Europe's sales have been in points, too, and from an earlier period than Sunterra of the US. In spite of that, a majority of their members are STILL weeks-based members. Doesn't that tell you something about market resistance to points?

The developer is always going to have a somewhat different perspective from the members. Points are based on what the developer percieves is good for the developer, not what is good for the member. Points allows the developer to extract extra fees for ''conversion'' and it allows the developer to continue selling at sold out locations since they can argue that ''points are points'' and it doesn't matter where they are deeded. It has nothing to do with any benefit to members. It is all about benefit to developers.

Actually you are wrong about resort groups dominating current timeshare sales. Even if you take out resales (almost half - 47% - of the current timeshare sales), and look at timeshare currently in the pipeline from developers, a majority of that is from independent developers. Those figures are from a recent trade journal article cited in Street Talk on the TimeshareBeat. I posted the reference to that when it came out.

Funny, though, that in the US almost all of Sunterra's current sales are in Points. If Sunterra's experience with Points was so bad, why did they make Points their primary sales vehicle?

Virtually every resort group - and resort goups represent most current timeshare sales - have some kind of system that reveals to owners what their ownership is worth for internal trading and what is required to trade into other units. Some do it numerically with points. Some do it with ascending categories of ownership. Some do it by creating internal trading blocks - if your ownership is in a given block you can trade for.

None of them do it by telling owners, "Hand in your week, put in a request, and we'll tell you at some point whether or not your wish will be granted." I really don't think there is overwhelming demand for that type of exchange system that is being overlooked by every single major ceveloper out there.

You can call it points, you can call it jewels, you can call it aardvaarks, Trading currency by any other name is still trading currency. And by far the majority of current timeshare sales is for ownerships that come with a defined trading currency.