The Manhattan Club: who needs a crossover grid?

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

The developer is always going to have a somewhat different perspective from the members. Points are based on what the developer percieves is good for the developer, not what is good for the member. Points allows the developer to extract extra fees for ''conversion'' and it allows the developer to continue selling at sold out locations since they can argue that ''points are points'' and it doesn't matter where they are deeded. It has nothing to do with any benefit to members. It is all about benefit to developers.

I agree that conversions are a hard sell. But most sales of units with trading currency are new sales, where there is no conversion fee.

My observation about new development comes mostly from the lists of new resorts I see in Endless Vacation magazine. Almost all of the resort listed are part of resort groups, and they appear to gnerally larger units overall.

I'd like to see the link if you can dig it back out. I suspect that the comparison being made is with RCI Points, whereas I am referring to all programs that have trading currency. I suspect that the vast majority of sales of uits with trading currency are outside the RCI Points system.

Furthermore, sales of RCI Points would not include sales in programs such as HGVC where individual ownerships can be used in RCI Points, but are not RCi Points ownerships.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

The article did not go into how a resort traded, just whether it was part of a branded resort group or offered by an independent developer, and it was based on number of units rather than number of resorts.

And BTW only a government can issue a currency, and I don't know of any timeshare developer or exchange company that is a government. What you are referring to is a voucher or scrip, good only in the company store, a far different thing than a currency.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

..

And BTW only a government can issue a currency, and I don't know of any timeshare developer or exchange company that is a government. What you are referring to is a voucher or scrip, good only in the company store, a far different thing than a currency.

You're really hung up on this definition of currency, aren't you??

According to Merriam Webster, the first defintion of "currency" is "circulation as a medium of exchange". All of the systems I mentioned share that feature - they are a medium of exchange.

There is a second definition of "currency" that does refer to coins, Treasury notes, etc. In my economics classes in school, those were referred to as "hard" currencies, specifically to distinguish them from "soft" currencies that were mediums of exchange not issued by governments. The systems that I referred to are all examples of soft currencies. That was more than 30 years ago, though, and I haven't studed economics literature much since then, so maybe economics usage has changed. But I'm pretty sure that common language usage hasn't. I can't vouch for OBX dialects, though I assure you definitions haven't changed in Minnesotan.

Note also that dictionaries list definitiions in order of general usage, with the most common usages listed first and proceeding successively to the less common usage. The definition I am using is the most common and most generally accepted usage, and is the definition that should be assumed unless context indicates a less common usage should be applied.

Objection overruled.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Something usable only in the company store is not a medium of exchange in general circulation. General circulation means acceptance generally in the economy not just in the company store. You are talking about a voucher or scrip.

A hard currency is one that is readily convertible like the Swiss franc, US dollar, or British pound. A soft currency is one that cannot be readily converted like the Moldovan lei or many third world currencies.

You're really hung up on this definition of currency, aren't you??

According to Merriam Webster, the first defintion of "currency" is "circulation as a medium of exchange". All of the systems I mentioned share that feature - they are a medium of exchange.

There is a second definition of "currency" that does refer to coins, Treasury notes, etc. In my economics classes in school, those were referred to as "hard" currencies, specifically to distinguish them from "soft" currencies that were mediums of exchange not issued by governments. The systems that I referred to are all examples of soft currencies. That was more than 30 years ago, though, and I haven't studed economics literature much since then, so maybe economics usage has changed. But I'm pretty sure that common language usage hasn't. I can't vouch for OBX dialects, though I assure you definitions haven't changed in Minnesotan.

Note also that dictionaries list definitiions in order of general usage, with the most common usages listed first and proceeding successively to the less common usage. The definition I am using is the most common and most generally accepted usage, and is the definition that should be assumed unless context indicates a less common usage should be applied.

Objection overruled.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

Read my post. Sunterra Europe's sales have been in points, too, and from an earlier period than Sunterra of the US. In spite of that, a majority of their members are STILL weeks-based members. Doesn't that tell you something about market resistance to points?

No, it shows that those who were sold on the idea of owning a fixed week - most likely to use - are reluctant to pay more to convert to a system that is based on exchange. It isn't surprising. But that market was limited to a very small number and only the really attractive use periods. Sunterra, like all others trying to sell off season time, found there needed to be a better way to offer value in the non-prime seasons. It isn't surprising at all that those who bought in early to a fxed week USE model wouldn't see an advantage to points. But those aren't the new buyers of today.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Something usable only in the company store is not a medium of exchange in general circulation. General circulation means acceptance generally in the economy not just in the company store. You are talking about a voucher or scrip.

A hard currency is one that is readily convertible like the Swiss franc, US dollar, or British pound. A soft currency is one that cannot be readily converted like the Moldovan lei or many third world currencies.

Read the definition again carefully. Nowhere does it say "general" circulation. In the most common usage currencly merely needs to circulate as a medium of exchange.


*****

I have to say that your legal training comes through clearly in many of thse discussions. I often see you using the rhetorical devices that attorneys use to trip up and mislead witnesses during questioning under oath or to reframe a topic to match the foundations of their clients case. I mention that because your inserting the worrd "general" where it wasn't there orginally is one of the devices I have often encountered while being deposed.

I further suspect that you're pretty formidable in depositions and interrogations!

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

currency is still measured in amperes.

One of my favorite lines from Shawshank Redemption: "Are you being intentionally obtuse?"

RCI Points = vacation currency

HGVC Points = vacation currency

Hyatt Points = vacation currency

Fairshare Plus Points = vacation currency

WorldMark credits = vacation currency

Bluegreen points = vacation currency

Sunterra Points = vacation currency

Disney points = vacation currency

SVO points = vacation currency

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

''Circulate'' by itself means more than just something good at the company store. Other definitions such as that in Blacks Law DIctionary may be more explicit, but the gist of it is there even in this definition. If you can't spend it at McDonalds and the corner gas station, as well as RCI's company store, it simply isn't a currency.

Actually, the overbroad use of the term ''currency'' in these discussions is probably the most misleading. As I have said before, your arguments would have been stronger if you had something like ''currency-like'' since the facts could probably be stretched enough to contend that points have a few but certainly no where near all of the attributes of a non-convertible currency.
And, of course, we also have to look at the misuse of the term ''soft currency''.

Read the definition again carefully. Nowhere does it say "general" circulation. In the most common usage currencly merely needs to circulate as a medium of exchange.


*****

I have to say that your legal training comes through clearly in many of thse discussions. I often see you using the rhetorical devices that attorneys use to trip up and mislead witnesses during questioning under oath or to reframe a topic to match the foundations of their clients case. I mention that because your inserting the worrd "general" where it wasn't there orginally is one of the devices I have often encountered while being deposed.

I further suspect that you're pretty formidable in depositions and interrogations!

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I suspect that the rapid rise in the percentage of resales in the timeshare market - now 47% of all timeshare sales, a large recent increase - at least partly reflects people seeking a weeks-based system that too many developers don't want to offer any more. Of course, it also reflects increased exposure in the marketplace, but the degree of its recent rise would suggest more than that is at work.

Oh, yes, points is a good way paper over off season time. Take Peppertree / Equivest points sales on the Outer Banks. They had nearly sold out Outer Banks Beach Club I and II as fixed weeks, put what mostly off season weeks they had left into their points club and started selling points instead. They took their tours to the Beach Club, and told them how many points it would take to get a summer week there. Buyers were then deeded a week in Wisconsin to back up their points. Funny thing, though when they tried to redeem them for that summer week at the Beach Club nothing was availible. It is the abilitiy to engage in such sleight of hand that attracts multi-resort developers to points.

No, it shows that those who were sold on the idea of owning a fixed week - most likely to use - are reluctant to pay more to convert to a system that is based on exchange. It isn't surprising. But that market was limited to a very small number and only the really attractive use periods. Sunterra, like all others trying to sell off season time, found there needed to be a better way to offer value in the non-prime seasons. It isn't surprising at all that those who bought in early to a fxed week USE model wouldn't see an advantage to points. But those aren't the new buyers of today.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

I suspect that the rapid rise in the percentage of resales in the timeshare market - now 47% of all timeshare sales, a large recent increase - at least partly reflects people seeking a weeks-based system that too many developers don't want to offer any more. Of course, it also reflects increased exposure in the marketplace, but the degree of its recent rise would suggest more than that is at work.

I would suggest that the rapid rise in resales reflect a number of things. Mostly the shear number of timeshares in the hands of owners who want out at any cost. Many are 10-20 years from original purchase and no longer wish to pay annual fees. Many occur because buyers have discovered the huge discounts that resales offer vs new purchase. I have a sneaky feeling that few are sold specifically because they are in a weeks exchange system. Usually weeks based ownerships are attractive because they are a prime time use period not intended for much exchange activity by the buyer. In fact I'd bet that most resales are like Fairfield where a points based ownership, while very inexpensive on resale, is still worth more than a weeks based one.

Oh, yes, points is a good way paper over off season time. Take Peppertree / Equivest points sales on the Outer Banks. They had nearly sold out Outer Banks Beach Club I and II as fixed weeks, put what mostly off season weeks they had left into their points club and started selling points instead. They took their tours to the Beach Club, and told them how many points it would take to get a summer week there. Buyers were then deeded a week in Wisconsin to back up their points. Funny thing, though when they tried to redeem them for that summer week at the Beach Club nothing was availible. It is the abilitiy to engage in such sleight of hand that attracts multi-resort developers to points.

There is a big problem when a resort has sold off the prime weeks as fixed use and then offers the poorer times as float or points. While technically the float/points time could get one of those prime periods it isn't likely to occur. A far more honest sales approach is the one you hate - average the values from the good to best and fair to poor in a points system. Then all buyers from the good and best times get a real chance at the best use periods as well as some shoulder time while the fair to poor get less points but can choose to bank or rent more to get the best times if they wish. It is that averaging that smoothes out the peak and makes it available to more owners and softens the cost of owning an off time period. When the best times are removed to favor the fixed time buyers whats left isn't attractive and even points has a tough time overcoming that. Just like a weeks based system if no one deposits the best weeks - points based or not - then no one can take them out. It's like the fixed times are "raiding" the pool of use prior to the points having a shot at it. That is a very tough model to sustain although it can be done. Better to have all time in a float/points system so everyone has a fair chance at any season. Also having the time automatically go into the system each use period helps everyone get what they want out. Auto deposit is another thing you seem to dislike but it helps the system work as it should by eliminating the question of what will be in inventory each use year.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

''Circulate'' by itself means more than just something good at the company store. Other definitions such as that in Blacks Law DIctionary may be more explicit, but the gist of it is there even in this definition. If you can't spend it at McDonalds and the corner gas station, as well as RCI's company store, it simply isn't a currency.

Actually, the overbroad use of the term ''currency'' in these discussions is probably the most misleading. As I have said before, your arguments would have been stronger if you had something like ''currency-like'' since the facts could probably be stretched enough to contend that points have a few but certainly no where near all of the attributes of a non-convertible currency.
And, of course, we also have to look at the misuse of the term ''soft currency''.

It doesn't matter if you call it currency, currency-like, grapefruit, tealeaf, carpet, and any other word in any dictionary in the world. You understand the point that we are trying to make and you are intentionally using red herring arguments in an attempt to prove a point you don't even need to prove.

You believe weeks systems are better. And, you don't like point systems. That is legitimate.

We just believe that most people in the world don't agree with you.

[short Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close short]

Buying weeks does not = preferring weeks

I don't think you can infer that because there are more weeks sold resale than points based memberships that people prefer weeks.

There are just more weeks than points based memberships available for sale at much lower initial purchase cost.

I purchased 4 weeks in the last 4 years. 2 fixed and 2 floating.

Why? Because thats what would get me into the resorts at the time and place of my choise for a price I was willing to pay. No more no less. I much prefer points based exchange system but week has a much lower purchase cost. If you can get your ownership cost down you can use a week for 3 or 4 days and it would still be more economical than renting.(I am talking about renting Marriotts and Westins not last call or cheap EV's)

I also do not believe that you can infer from developer sales percentages that the buying public either prefers weeks or points from developers. Most people buy from developers whatever the developer was selling because they were talked into it. That includes points and weeks. That includes 20 plus years of developer sales weeks.

I'm not even sure an independent survey would be proof and questions can be phrased differently so as to get the response one wants. If you ask someone the following questions you might get entirely different answers.

1 Do you prefer the weeks or points exchange system.

or 2 Would you like to have a Tue or Wed check in for your 7 day stay so as to be better able to obtain frequent flyer airfare.

JMHO
Short

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

Short,

You raise some very good points.

The true test of preference is not via survey, but via open market resale prices. In an open market, buyers have evaluated alternatives and purchased based on some knowledge of the alternatives and vote with their $$$. This is the most persuasive test of what's better.

If you take fixed weeks in systems like Fairfield and Bluegreen and compare them via eBay completed auction prices for fixed weeks converted into Points, you will see that there is a signficant uplift in purchase price for the points alternative vs. the fixed week alternative.

That means that the market is definitely seeing real value in the benefits offered by point systems.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

But you can hardly give away points from Peppertree/Equivest or Club La Costa (Europe) or Flexiclub or any of its brethern in South Africa. Even the venerable Hapimag, with one of the best buyback pledges in the industry, is seeing the market value of its points hitting a low point as more people want to sell than to buy. Points does not equal market success.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

You can't go lower than nothing (unless you pay them)

Market lows are the many weeks that are offered for NOTHING and can't be given away! In some cases they are zero value NAD the owner has to pay to give them up! I have never seen a case where a points based system had zero value. Low, maybe, but never zero. Weeks hold that dubious distinction.