Serious Older Orlando Mega-Resort Problems?

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

By serious I mean let's try to keep the personality conflicts out of this.

We cut our timeshare baby teeth on the older Orlando mega-resorts. Our first tour was Orange Lake when it wasn't much more than an Olympic pool, a clubhouse, and a cluster of golf villas, all sparkling and new.

Our second tour, later that day, was Westgate, which was a clubhouse, a cluster of sparkling new units with names like A, B and C, a lot of mud, and an exit tent.

By the end of that week we bought into the Westgate family, at a lesser CFI resort we thought maybe we could work into the budget. We eventually wound up with three weeks.

We were way too early for the newer breed of timeshares, the Marriotts and the alphabet ones, HGVC, DVC, etc.

Over the years we have stayed at and/or toured Westgate and OL many times. We are reasonably informed and familiar with both resorts.

Both are similar. They were founded by men with strong personalities. The developer has stayed active/invoilved/controlling in both. Sales and marketing continues at both. The new projects/acquisitions are the focus of both.

Could it be that there are flaws in their concept, flaws which assure that every week a certain percentage at each resort will not receive a quality vacation.

Complaints at both are similar: Sales pressure intervering with vacations, Westgate more than OL. Cleanliness, condition of older units. Inconsiderate, unresponsive staff.

Could it be that that is just the way it is going to be?

Even if the area was only those two resorts, they are near each other, and each week the equivalent of a small city moves in and out. Add to that, of course, the fact that Disney is right there, and all the other resorts, restaurants, attractions, etc., and it means all of those groups are dipping into the same pool of close-to-minimum-wage employees.

Could it be that there are just not enough people who care, at the lower pay scales, to clean units, maintain units, or deal with unhappy guests in a cordial manner? Could that be why management focuses on the bright new projects, knowing there is little they can do about the older bottom falling out of their resorts, if it is?

We have been to a lot of older resorts in our 90 exchanges. The smaller ones seem to be able to handle providing a quality vacation much better than the older mega resorts.

The Holiday Inns replaced the motor courts and now the Holiday Inns are being replaced by newer, spiffier hotels and motels. Why would timeshares be any different, except, of course, for the fact that someone owns those older units?

And how do you find enough staff who cares and is willing to work for next to nothing?

Do you think you can't please everyone has become the official policy?

[CaliDave Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close CaliDave]

One of my resorts is only 43 units.. but it's still tough to find people that care and will work for next to nothing.. We paid the non caring minimum wagers for years and years. Our resort slowly went downhill, until we finally needed a huge special assesment to bring it back up to good quality.
Our owners wanted those low maint fees.. until the special assesment hit and now they would rather pay more every year.
So we hired a profeesional maintenace manager and a much better and higher paid head of housekeeping.
We are spending quite a bit more for staff, but they owners seem much happier with the resort and the overall vacation experience

[tonyg Goomba & Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tonyg]

I've always felt better at a friendlier small resort, tho the one with 8 units was an exception due to it being incorporated as a small segment of a large resort. My favorite size seems to be under 60 units in the USA. I've stayed at 2 Westgates and the latest stay (Lakes) had the type of employee you describe. Both the Lakes and the Villas had their sales pushiness, but it was more direct and straightforward at the Villas. Of course, interaction will vary greatly even among the smaller resorts. The two downeast Maine resorts that we frequently stay at are both friendly and superbly service oriented- one is sold out and the other is still expanding and selling. And who can complain about the service provided by resort employees in Mexico ?

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

A serious problem with the megas

As both an owner and a guest at the Orlando mega resorts I can say with certainty they are trouble and troubled. The value is ruined both for trade and resale by the never ending stream of new units. They tend to isolated locations that require a private car even within the resort.

Worse than those non-guest friendly attributes, offset in some degree by the often present massive amount of on site amenities, is the lack of owner control. All of them seem to have developers that simply will not let go. That alone is enough to make them unattractive to own. There is the already well documented issues with highly variable unit conditions and staff issues. It's like controlling a small town!

But my biggest issue with them all is the future of annual fees. The accounting for who owns what part of what section/phase and how the massive amount of common areas (and equipment /attractions) gets spread seems unsettled at best. I fear that down the line and not all that far away owners are going to be in for a massive shock at how much it costs to maintain/replace not only the thousands of units but those common features. I'll bet the current fees will look cheap when those repairs roll around in 7-10 years. Hello special assessments and $1000 annual costs. I'm happy that I only own one of these massive places and even that one - which doesn't have much in the way of common features - is already higher cost and lower resale value than my smaller and much better run resorts. I think the mega resorts are a diaster waiting to hit owners even harder than they have already.

[CaliDave Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close CaliDave]

Good post John.. I agree

I think a better way to do things if you want a huge presence in one area. Is to do like Hilton and Marriott. Build new completely seperate resorts.

Hilton has 3 in Vegas, 2 in Orlando. All seem to be of managable size.

[Ryne08 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Ryne08]

I agree a small resort can be much better maintain then a mega resort. Maintenance costs should be less and staff costs also should be less.
They are just fewer units to upkeep.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

I think John hit the nail on the head. This is not a FLorida problem or an Orlando problem. It is a developer control problem, and that can crop up anywhere from a geographic standpoint and in medium sized as well as mega resorts. The mega resorts just add the twist that the organizational costs of trying to challenge the developer would be huge and therefore as a practical matter make a challenge impossible.

Even smaller resorts can have that problem. Three of the resorts I presently own at and one I formerly owned at had to resort to legal means to run off a developer who wanted to stay in control. Three of those are smaller NC resorts and one in a mid-sized SA resort. One OBX resort even had to go all the way to the NC Supreme Court in their successful battle to show the developer the door.

From actual situations I am aware of, owners at resorts where the developer keeps a stranglehold should be concerned about a number of issues:
1. Is the developer paying full m/f's on the weeks it owns?
2. On foreclosures for unpaid m/f's and related deedbacks, are the weeks deeded to the developer or to the HOA? If they are deeded to the developer, does the HOA get a fair payment from the developer?
3. Do any of the expenses charged to the resort go to items that should be developer expenses?
4. Is the developer paying itself exhorbitant fees for its services?

[shopgirl Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close shopgirl]

Those are great questions that it would be nice to ask when we buy, Carolinian,

The only problem with those questions if that the developer is going to have answers that are what we want to hear.

We bought two Pahio (resale) weeks and all of their resorts are run by them and will always be, as far as I can tell. They raise the MF's every year by about 8%. I wonder when it is going to stop, or at least slow down.

There is an HOA and lots of competition for positions on the board. You have to have a doctorate and run three businesses to get elected.

But it looks as if the developer always gets the final word. Pahio management is pahio sales, no real distinction from what I can tell.

Consolidated Resorts, the management and sales for our Gardens at West Maui resort, is definitely "on the take." Those guys are just crooks, plus they treat resale owners badly at owners' update meetings. They watch us closely to make sure we don't share our secrets with exchangers and renters. They also will not invite us to their sales tours. We are garbage to them. As far as they are concerned, we are too smart to buffalo. Well, that is true, but what harm does it do to give us a free gift.

Developers left our CO resorts many, many years ago, and we are better off for it. They left us in a horrible mess at both places. Lots of bills to pay, lots of unsold units that we had to give away to get those MF's coming in. Talk about property values going downhill quickly.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

If you own at a resort where there are questions that need to be answered and a developer is in control, the best bet is to seek your own answers rather than relying on the developer's answers.

For example, the only developer on the OBX still hanging onto control of its HOA's at sold out resorts is Barrier Island Station at BIS-Duck and BIS-Ocean Pines. BIS actually bought the latter resort from the original developer when it was just under 80% sold out. From what I have seen at the courthouse, if I owned at one of those resorts, I would be asking some serious questions about what really happens on the foreclosures/deedbacks. There are some real red flags, which may or may not be properly dealt with once one goes into the HOA's books. Corporate law has always allowed a certain level of access to HOA books by t/s owners, and the new amendments to the HOA laws in North Carolina have just expanded that access.

First Flight Builders was found to not be paying its m/f's at its resorts, and had to reimburse at least some of its HOA's when it was sent packing.

A subsequent developer who had bought out the original developer at Bodie Island Beach Club was subjected to a detailed investigation by the North Carolina Real Estate Commission, resulting in his being ejected from any involvement with the resort, which he had been managing, and the revocation of his real estate broker's license. Handling of foreclosures/deedbacks was one of the problems there.

If you run across any significant indications of wrongdoing, the Real Estate Commission of the state where the resort is located is usually the place to go to seek action. In most states, that is the body charged with oversight of timeshares.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Our last experience at Westgate was almost the same as people are now reporting at OL. It was the beginning of the end of our three weeks of CFI ownership.

I had initially booked it as an II exchange, but then it was available as an RCI Vacation Escape, so I cancelled the exchange and switched.

When we checked in, when I finally got to the front of a very long line, the lady behind the counter said something about an II exchange. Not knowing any better, I said we had cancelled that and were there through RCI. A few minutes later she said something like, "Amperio hora, aquí usted está con RCI."

We were now marked as lowly non-owners.

We got our bottle of yucky sugar-water champagne and were off with the first sales pimp in his golf cart to lovely Bldg. B, and the most run-down unit we had ever seen. Complaints only got us the Maintenance Survey. Nothing was fixed while we were there.

The welcome party was in a huge room with probably 700 people and every unknown-to-us germ and virus from around the world.

We lasted about 10 minutes in that, about one serving of chips and soda, and then said, "Le ve más tarde. ¡Somos fuera de aquí!"

That was the Orlando visit when I coined the phrase Vacation Mill, vacations served up feedlot style.

[Icc5 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Icc5]

Size isn't the difference

We have found over the years that the size of the resort isn't what keeps it good or bad but the management and the workers. We have stayed in aprox . 90 places in the past 18 years with some great, good, bad, and one we left early and couldn't stand it.
One of the best we've ever stayed at was Eagle Crest in Oregon and it is a good sized resort. It is well maintained with good staff and everything about it is nice.
We have also stayed at one place that was great one time and the next time there the unit we were in looked like it was falling apart. This was a medium size resort that had recently changed it's manager twice.
Bart

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Management is part of the resort leadership, together with the HOA board. A resort really needs both to be working for the best interests of members. A good HOA board will identify ineffective management and replace them.

Problems are much more likely to occur if the board considers its first duty to be to someone other than the members. That is when conflicts of interest can easily arise. A board still dominated by the developer or one that is controlled by a management company is asking for problems for the members.

[JLB Please excuse me, I'm a Dick. Not a moron just a Dick Find all posts View Profile Close JLB]

Yeah right, any day now the board at Westgate will be getting rid of Mr. Seagull.

A good HOA board will identify ineffective management and replace them.

[Carolinian Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Carolinian]

Yeah right, any day now the board at Westgate will be getting rid of Mr. Seagull.

When the developer is still in controll, of course that won't happen. Only in resorts where owners control the HOA would it be likely.

[timeos2 Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close timeos2]

They always seems to be developer controlled

When the developer is still in controll, of course that won't happen. Only in resorts where owners control the HOA would it be likely.

Steve - Thats one of the real problems. Name one of the mega resorts that isn't run by the developer. It seems to be one way they maintain that level of control.