Ka'anapali Beach Club Owner's Problem

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

A hypothetical person who exercises "those qualities of attention, knowledge, intelligence and judgment which society requires of its members for the protection of their own interest and the interests of others."

It does matter what "a reasonable man" may think!

The phrase does not apply to a person's ability to reason, but rather the prudence with which he acts under the circumstances.

A test used to determine whether or not one person was negligent towards another. Negligence will exist upon a failure to do "something which a reasonable man, guided by those considerations which ordinarily regulate the conduct of human affairs, would do, or [the doing of] something which a reasonable and prudent person would not do.

Even if there is hidden or ambiguous language in the contract a court of law will always look to the reasonable man law and juries will typically be sympathetic to an individual rights when they are facing a large business attempting to deny those rights.

That presumes ambiguity.

In Walt''s case he is going to have a deed that specifies he owns a certain type of unit. There will be associated documents describing that type of unit and the associated usage privileges.

Based on the information that has been provided thus far, I doubt there is any ambiguity at all as to what Walt legally owns (deluxe ocean view).

*****

The real question, however, is whether Walt was misled at the time he purchased and that the misrepresentations were done to induce a sale. That's where the papers that have "ocean front" written on them become relevant. If other people are reporting the same thing that bolsters the case that misrepresentations were deliberate and undercuts any arguments that this was a rogue salesperson or that Walt's documents might not be authentic.

In fact, if Sunterra was selling something that didn't exist, it likely verges on fraud.

I just don't see where a "reasonable person" test factors into this. Fraud doesn't rely on reasonable person test; in this case it's a simple issue of whether Walt (and others) as individuals relied on the fraudulent misrepresentations. There is no need to ask what a reasonable person would have done in the circumstances; it's only a question of what occurred between Walt and the sales person.

Let's say that Walt and the sales person understood between themselves that "Ocean Front Unit" meant "untouched red 1965 Chevy Impala" and Walt actually found out four years later when the paint bleeds off the car that the car was originally lime-green and had been repainted red. The fact that a reasonable person would never assume that "ocean front unit" means "unretouched red 1965 Chevy Impala" is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what was understood between Walt and the sales person.

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

That Is A Good Question!

Can someone please tell me who Diamond is actually assigning our oceanfront units to then? Someone is in those units. Is DRI actually using these units for sales perks just to entice others to convert or purchase into the "Club"?

I talked to the Reservation Manager, but never really got an answer. I think it would be better to have unit number listed on our reservation but unless the BOD passes this rule I don't think it will happen.

When I asked why I didn't get a Ocean Front Unit since I made the reservation 1 full year before check in, the Reservation Manager said it really wasn't the reason I was going to be placed in a North Side Unit. That first come was not a factor for getting an ocean Front Unit in the weeks program.


Walt

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

Were We Misled?

That presumes ambiguity.

In Walt''s case he is going to have a deed that specifies he owns a certain type of unit. There will be associated documents describing that type of unit and the associated usage privileges.

Based on the information that has been provided thus far, I doubt there is any ambiguity at all as to what Walt legally owns (deluxe ocean view).

*****

The real question, however, is whether Walt was misled at the time he purchased and that the misrepresentations were done to induce a sale. That's where the papers that have "ocean front" written on them become relevant. If other people are reporting the same thing that bolsters the case that misrepresentations were deliberate and undercuts any arguments that this was a rogue salesperson or that Walt's documents might not be authentic.

In fact, if Sunterra was selling something that didn't exist, it likely verges on fraud.

I just don't see where a "reasonable person" test factors into this.

I only want to show that by the resonable person argument that my wife and I fully understood what was sold to us and what we bought. There was no misunderstanding on our part.

Also by some of the posts and by some of my emails it appears that others may have been misled.

After reading the disclosure, I feel that we were misled. But I also don't believe that the Disclosure is as black and white as may appear.

Can anything be done about it? We shall see.

Walt

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

I think it would be better to have unit number listed on our reservation but unless the BOD passes this rule I don't think it will happen.(

That is extremely unlikely to happen. There was a very ugly scene several years ago at Po'ipu when the elevator broke down and they had to reassign some rooms so that some guests in wheelchairs received rooms they could actually use. People were reassigned rooms, still within view categories. Some people made a big fuss and were abusive to the resort staff because they did not get the room that had been "assigned" to them. BTW - that is all within the program documents, because the Po'ipu documents do give the resort the right to reassign people within a view category. But because of that, as well as some other reason I discussed previously about people harassing housekeeping staff on check-in day, the resorts stopped letting people know before check-in the specific room to which they have been assigned.

[T. R. Oglodyte Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close T. R. Oglodyte]

Can someone please tell me who Diamond is actually assigning our oceanfront units to then? Someone is in those units. Is DRI actually using these units for sales perks just to entice others to convert or purchase into the "Club"?

I've posted elsewhere how the reservation system works. In a nutshell, if you don't put in a specific room request, you get whatever is left after requests are filled for people who do put in specific room requests.

So, what is likely occurring here is that the reservation system does not recognize any distinction between "ocean front" and "deluxe ocean view", as has been discussed previously. "Deluxe ocean view" owners who know to request specific rooms are putting in requests for the best rooms, which of course are the ones that folks such as Walt believe they were sold.

If you're not getting an ocean front unit, it's likely because you either didn't put in a room request or, if you did, your request came in after those units had already been assigned to others.

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

This doesn't seem to be the case at KBC

I've posted elsewhere how the reservation system works. In a nutshell, if you don't put in a specific room request, you get whatever is left after requests are filled for people who do put in specific room requests.

So, what is likely occurring here is that the reservation system does not recognize any distinction between "ocean front" and "deluxe ocean view", as has been discussed previously. "Deluxe ocean view" owners who know to request specific rooms are putting in requests for the best rooms, which of course are the ones that folks such as Walt believe they were sold.

If you're not getting an ocean front unit, it's likely because you either didn't put in a room request or, if you did, your request came in after those units had already been assigned to others.

While KBC said they will try to honor a request, It appears you can be bump out of an Ocean Front Unit at anytime up to the time you get the Unit key.

Walt

[dann2005 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dann2005]

Oceanfront View Requests

I made my room request for a front room way in advance, made the visit during a very slow time of year (early December), when the resort is not full, own in the Deluxe Oceanview category, and still got put on the side of the building. So who is occupying those front units anyway, especially when the resort is not even full? I always got the oceanfront before DRI took over.

[frankieswhite Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close frankieswhite]

Ditto

At the time I bought the price break down according to Exhibit 4 was:

Type 1A.....Scenic View......Every Year...$18,890...Odd/Even Years...$12,900

Type 1B.....Ocean View.....Every Year....$21,890...Odd/Even Years...$15,900

Type 1C....Deluxe Ocean View...Every Year...$25,890...Odd/Even Years... $17,900.

There are some interesting points in the Disclosure, Exhibit 1.

Type 1A.......Scenic View........One Bedroom with sleeping accommodations for up to four persons and a view of the countryside.

Type 1B.......Ocean View.........One Bedroom with sleeping accomodations for up to four persons and a partial ocean View.

Type 1C.......Deluxe Ocean View.....One Bedroom with sleeping accomodations for up to four persons and a Deluxe Ocean View.

Since an Ocean View is a partial view of the Ocean, would a reasonable person think that a Deluxe Ocean View would mean an Ocean Front unit with a total ocean view?

Would a reasonable person, that has a deed that states he owns Unit #611 which is an Ocean Front Unit and a Type 1C unit, also think he owns an Ocean Front Unit?

Walt[/QUOTE]



We purchased under the same circumstances, three view choices, Scenic, Ocean and Deluxe Ocean Views. We paid more to have the Deluxe Ocean View and have always been put in one of the Ocean Front units, up until this year. I am sure this scenario has been repeated many times and it is time for us owners to be respected for the money we paid.

Here's my plug for Bill Burns in the upcoming elections. He is a fellow owner who has spent a tremendous amount of time and energy in providing owners with information regarding issues at the resort. It is time that the owners have more input into the decisions made that affect all of us.

[tennisWalt Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close tennisWalt]

We Bought On 1/24/2001

We bought a Deluxe Ocean Front (View) Odd years in 2001. We came back in Jan. of 2002, (Use our 2001 week in 2002), 2003, 2005, 2007, and 2009.

Each Reservation was made 1 full year before check in. So everything was the same except for DRI management.

This year was the first year that we used our week at the KBC under DRI management. This is the first year we were NOT given a Deluxe Ocean Front Unit upon checking in. It makes you wonder Why?

We bought in 2001 only because we could buy a Deluxe Ocean FRONT unit. Otherwise, I would have just taken my chances with the view by just trading into the Embassy again. I had traded into the Embassy at least 2 times before. In fact, we traded into the KBC for the 2nd week of our stay at the KBC this year.

After signing the contact, my wife and I can remember our Saleslady saying, "From now on when you come to the Embassy you will always be in an Ocean Front Unit."

Our deed show we own an Ocean Front Unit #611.

But now DRI is saying they (Sunterra) never sold Ocean Front Units. That they only sold Deluxe Ocean Views. And they acted surprise that I always got into an Ocean Front Unit before this vacation.

Walt

[dann2005 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dann2005]

Who is getting those OceanFront Units Now?

I have always gotten my oceanfront (deluxe oceanview)room everytime I visited; however, just since DRI has taken over management there seems to be an issue. Has anybody received an answer from DRI who they actually put in those units then, if it's not the actual owners? Has someone notified Bill about this problem? Why is it just DRI, and not Sunterra or Embassy?

[Spence Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Spence]

I have always gotten my oceanfront (deluxe oceanview)room everytime I visited; however, just since DRI has taken over management there seems to be an issue. Has anybody received an answer from DRI who they actually put in those units then, if it's not the actual owners? Has someone notified Bill about this problem? Why is it just DRI, and not Sunterra or Embassy?

It'd be nice to know those answers, but it was never Embassy, it was Sunterra and their predecessor Marc? who had the frnachise name.

[BocaBum99 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close BocaBum99]

I actually bought one of these 1br OceanFront units as my very first timeshare purchase. Boy, am I lucky that I cancelled that purchase within the recission period. I, too, only bought it because it was an oceanfront unit.

[katiemack Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close katiemack]

I actually bought one of these 1br OceanFront units as my very first timeshare purchase. Boy, am I lucky that I cancelled that purchase within the recission period. I, too, only bought it because it was an oceanfront unit.

I remember your discussions on the boards as you were figuring out rescission. Seems so long ago!

[dann2005 Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close dann2005]

OceanFront Units

Doesn't matter who the owner was (Embassy, Sunterra, DRI) - DRI cannot make changes to a deeded unit and put you whereever they choose. If they are putting anyone other than a deeded owner in those rooms, they are either overbooking, upgrading the other view owners, or using them as sales perks. This needs to stop - we paid for these views, they belong to us. Take your deed with you next time and demand what you paid for.

[Bill4728 Super Moderator Find all posts View Profile Close Bill4728]

You need more than your deed. If the sales paperwork doesn't list what units are in the view you bought but just a general discription, you may be out of luck.