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I think the current transgender philosophy is most unfortunate, setting us back by at least half a century, and undoing decades of work and progress for women's rights.
I tried to edit my link above by prefacing it with this comment, but didn't make the time cutoff - the NY Times piece explains pretty well why I think so.
And I agree with easyrider on this one.Comment
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Thanks for this article, Laurie. I appreciate the article and basically agree with what it says, perhaps best summed up with "Their truth is not my truth. Their female identities are not my female identity. They haven’t traveled through the world as women and been shaped by all that this entails." I was at a conference recently which even discussed some of the issues many transmen are facing as they transition from female to male, including dealing with the sudden onset of patriarchal privilege. The transgender experience is unique, no question.Originally posted by Laurie View PostComment
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Glitter, I don't quite understand why we in the west seem to be still stuck with the idea of a two sex system. A recent estimate talked about India having approx two million transgender people; hijra is a common term used to describe transgender people, transsexuals, cross-dressers, eunuchs and transvestites. The Supreme Court ordered that "It is the right of every human being to choose their gender" and I understand that they can choose "Other" on their passport or election ballot paper if they do not identify as either male or female. Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Polynesia also recognise a 3rd gender. Indonesia has Waria, Thailand has the Kathoeys, the Bugis of Sulawesi acknowledge three sexes, four genders, and a fifth meta-gender group. There is an Australian woman (in the US) researching "different sexes" and when we last spoke (a few years ago), she talked about 22 different sexes and their physical characteristics. This article discusses research from 1993Originally posted by Glitter Brunello View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/03/12/op...?pagewanted=1; Personally, I have met many people who I would say are "differently organised" and I'm not sure why there is such a problem with acknowledging them as "not one or the other".Comment
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Could it be that this is because there are only two genders and the feeling of being a gender that is not your gender is is established or encouraged through life experiences ?
Your examples of cultures exemplifies Taoist and Confusinist idealism's regarding gender. In the natural world there is always a masculine and feminine side in all things. The feminine and masculine forces share qualities of both sides to achieve a balance. If you look at these forces as in the ying yang symbol it is easy to see both genders have traits of both sides of the symbol meaning both genders contain both feminine and masculine qualities.
Lao tse wrote.....
In the western countries the culture is that created partly from the Bible. Genisis 1.27..A brave and passionate man will kill or be killed.
A brave and calm man will always preserve life.
Of these two, which is good and which is harmful?
Some things are not favoured by heaven. Who knows why?
Even the sage is unsure of this.
The Tao of heaven does not strive, and yet it overcomes.
It does not speak, and yet is answered.
It does not ask, yet is supplied with all its needs.
It seems at ease, and yet it follows a plan.
Heaven's net casts wide.
Though its meshes are coarse, nothing slips through.
No, it is not a right to chose ones gender. You are what you are at birth. A person learns their behavior through life experiences. A person has the right to act upon feelings when there is no harm done to them self or others.So God created man in His own image; He created him in the image of God; He created them male and female.
Yes, people should accept others for who and what they are but that acceptance is conditional when a person is delusional.Comment
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Yes, agree. I think there is some movement on this but it's still considered pretty "radical" by most. At the graduate school level, at least at liberal schools like mine, the discussions are taking place and people are labeling themselves with a wide variety of things. "Gender non-conforming" or "genderqueer" are some of the more common choices. I have one colleague who identifies as "gender non-binary." It remains confusing to the majority of people but the conversation is at least beginning.But there are plenty of trans* folk who do seem to identify with one gender or another - maybe it's their lifelong conditioning by our binary society, I don't know.Originally posted by CarolF View PostComment
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There are two words here, sex and gender, and until we have an understanding of their meanings, it is hard to discuss any of this because everyone means something different.
Then, there are four words, woman, female, man, male, and until we agree on the meanings it is hard to have a discussion. Recently the meanings/definitions of those words have been changed by many in the transgender movement, and they have insisted that everyone agree with their changed meanings.
In biology, in the actual scientific physical world, there are two sexes, except in the rare cases of intersexed people, which makes up a very tiny percentage of people who identify as trans. There are two sexes in most creatures, and it is a biological reality. But many in the trans movement have insisted that the definition of the word sex be changed.
Then there is gender. What does gender mean? Is it the same as the word sex, or different? Who decided that the meaning should change? Who decided that everyone else must accept the changed meaning?
Back in the day, many of worked to get rid of narrow, confining gender roles. That was where the word gender was useful, to describe a cultural division as to which sex liked what, and were allowed to do what. This worked well to keep women subordinate to men. Women worked hard to rid ourselves of them.
Men, not so much. There was not much of a movement for men to feel free to dress however they wanted, feel however, and be however they wanted, without strict gender roles and expectations. I believe that statistically, about 2/3 - 3/4 of trans people started life as males (as *I* define that biologically) and IMO this is where a lot of this trans theory comes from. Rather than changing society and culture to widen its definition of what's OK for males, as women did, their solution is to chemically, hormonally, and surgically alter their bodies. (and btw, pharmaceutical companies are big supporters at LGBT pride marches these days etc.)
So here we are, when feeling and believing you are a woman is all it takes to declare yourself as one, and in many cases be legally recognized as one.
"I was always a woman, born in the wrong body." "I was always female, born in the wrong body." Can I tell you how many trans people are insisting that their penises are female organs? I kid you not. Someone commented about a lesbian with a penis, and it was hard to not burst out laughing, except that more than a few are actually claiming this - and anyone who doesn't agree is tagged by them as "transphobic."
You might think this is only a radical fringe, but not so, unfortunately. A fact: many women authors, playwrites, speakers, musicians etc, who don't buy all this trans theory, can't get hired at universities anymore. There has been blacklisting and boycotting of women who don't accept all this, and worse yet, this discussion isn't permitted to even take place.
This is no joke, it is real income lost, by women who can't afford it.
It's also not a joke that younger and younger children are being deemed as "trans", as young as toddlers. And it is not uncommon for puberty blockers to be given. For what? Because someone likes to play with "girl" toys or "boy" toys? How can a small child determine the meaning of being male or female, a girl or a boy? By what definition??
In fact, much of this trans theory supports very old patriarchal gender roles and restrictions that need to be vanished, not strengthened and celebrated, and not codified into new laws, many of which put actual biological women (by my definition) at greater risk.
I watched the Diane Sawyer interview, and she never really asked the question: "What do you mean you feel like a woman? What feeling exactly are you talking about? What does the word woman mean in your definition?" Recently there was a film called "Lady Valor" about a trans Navy Seal. That question was never asked or addressed there either.
BTW I am a feminist, and a lesbian, and a progressive liberal. And I am very alarmed that so much of the progressive left, and now the mainstream, is buying this theory hook, line and sinker - without definitions, without science, without discussion of the deeper meanings of sex and gender, and without addressing the ramifications for people born as female and continuing to live as female.Comment
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I am finding this thread thought-provoking and enlightening. Thanks for all who have contributed their perspective!Comment
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Agreed! It has lead to my own discussions, research and subsequent education on the topic as well. Thank you all so much for doing this with grace and civility in a public forum where everyone who is reading can benefit.Originally posted by happymum View PostComment
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Thanks for this comment, Glitter - must have been an interesting discussionOriginally posted by Glitter Brunello View PostComment
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Bill, your wife probably doesn't like the idea of sharing a bathroom with you.Comment
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Only because I leave the toilet seat up, never replace the toilet paper, ever, occasionally miss the toilet at night time and leave an occasional log for her to plunge. Even so, I think she enjoys these infrequent bathroom infractions as she is still here after 38 years.
I do open the window if it gets funky in the bathroom.
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Thank you, Laurie, for broadening the discussion. It is undoubtedly a complex issue with far-reaching effects. Regardless of how people feel about Caitlyn, she has started discussions in places and among people who wouldn't otherwise be having them. I think many are interested in trying to understand the experience of trans and gender non conforming people. My own understanding and views continue to develop, and I appreciate the opportunity to think about the feminist viewpoint here.Originally posted by Laurie View PostComment
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It seems to me anyway, that Gender Identity Disorder has recently been glorified in the media while most of the good people are ignored. Yes, it does take a measure of courage to openly admit you have a mental disorder ? Not the same type of courage it takes to do what is right, which in Bruce's case would be to see a psychiatrist.
Suddenly, the transgender population are heros and the mentally well adjusted society members are scorned for their indifference to transgender disorder. Why should the transgender population be seen as equals to those who fought for civil rights ? Are we as a society ready to accommodate every group and validate any condition ? If so, I would like my group of gun enthusiasts treated as heros and validated in the media as well.Comment
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